Protected Pot Bluff
 

UTG is DeathDonkey
Button is a solid LAGTAG

Party Poker 30/60 Hold'em (4 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero caps</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG calls, Button calls.

Flop: (13 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG checks, Button checks.

Turn: (6.50 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Button calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>.

Final Pot: 10.50 BB

on one hand, he shouldn't expect me to try to checkraise twice with a big hand, but on the other, he still has a good player behind him.

Re: Protected Pot Bluff
 

Doesn't make much sense to me as a bluff. I think you probably have the best hand here anyway or DD would have bet the flop. Speaking of which why didn't you bet the flop yourself? If you don't think you are decently likely to have the best hand on this flop then why cap pf instead of fold? I like pf but think you should bet the flop as you have the best hand often.

After the flop is checked through I'd also bet the turn. I see no evidence at all that your hand isn't best. If raised I'd almost want to 3-bet since a free SD raise would be so likely. In fact bet/3-bet is probably correct (assuming it's HU).

Re: Protected Pot Bluff
 

wow, is it opposite day?

Re: Protected Pot Bluff
 

Funny, I just finished reading Gonores article on this concept on checkraised.com.

Re: Protected Pot Bluff
 

I know you like to check these flops, but I think you should bet this one against good opponents because you put the squeeze on deathdonkey and you can fold a lot of live overcard hands from both players.

On the turn you're not representing anything. No good palyer would check a big or even decent made hand on this flop ever.

Re: Protected Pot Bluff
 

Does everyone play this hand in Josh's position? I think its a fold preflop.

-DeathDonkey

Re: Protected Pot Bluff
 

i am positive that this is a preflop fold.

Re: Protected Pot Bluff
 

[ QUOTE ]
i am positive that this is a preflop fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

that's a definite possibility but this is 4 handed after all

Re: Protected Pot Bluff
 

Bump because I still can't believe this worked.

-DeathDonkey

Re: Protected Pot Bluff
 

[ QUOTE ]
Bump because I still can't believe this worked.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]why?
if he didnt have the best hand, you made a seriously bad laydown.

Re: Protected Pot Bluff
 

I had AQo - pretty hard to call with the decent player behind me who I thought had us both beat. I knew it smelled fishy but I ran my timer down and finally mucked and then button insta-mucked and Josh showed it to rub it in.

-DeathDonkey

Re: Protected Pot Bluff
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Bump because I still can't believe this worked.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]why?
if he didnt have the best hand, you made a seriously bad laydown.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hold'em is a game of correct decisions, not exact plays as if our opponents' cards were face up.

If he made the correct laydown 98% of the time, why can't this hand fall into the other 2% without DD having made a bad fold?

Re: Protected Pot Bluff
 

Actually I agree with Flawless, it was a big pot and Josh chose a funky line and I folded the best hand. As soon as he showed me AJ I felt awful.

-DeathDonkey

Re: Protected Pot Bluff
 

im just gonna be blatantly honest and say you both played v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v awful.
like, wow.
why would he show this? why would he check this flop? why did u check flop? WHY O WHY DID U FOLD TURN?? EZE EZ EZ EZ E Z THREEBET... at least call.
jesus. u guys never actually played 4handed before on the internet or what?

Re: Protected Pot Bluff
 

[ QUOTE ]
i am positive that this is a preflop fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't know how accurate my ranges are for the specific situation but I give DD a similar range to what I could have and the "lag tag" what I estimate as the typical range of a 35/25.



equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 31.2193 % 29.59% 01.63% { 44+, A2s+, K6s+, Q8s+, J8s+, T8s+, 97s+, 87s, 76s, 65s, A7o+, K9o+, Q9o+, JTo }
Hand 2: 33.2405 % 31.12% 02.12% { 44+, A2s+, K9s+, Q9s+, JTs, A8o+, KTo+, QTo+ }
Hand 3: 35.5402 % 32.79% 02.75% { AJo }

Re: Protected Pot Bluff
 

[ QUOTE ]
i am positive that this is a preflop fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not 4 handed.

Re: Protected Pot Bluff
 

those ranges are crazy. i seriously doubt dds range is that wide (especially with that dude to his left.)

its useless to argue the other guys range.

Re: Protected Pot Bluff
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i am positive that this is a preflop fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not 4 handed.

[/ QUOTE ]

sweet guys. go ahead and play dominated hands in huge pots out of position.

Re: Protected Pot Bluff
 

Probably a bit too loose for me but not that far off - I think too loose for the lagtag as he was giving me some respect. It's close I guess.

-DeathDonkey

Re: Protected Pot Bluff
 

[ QUOTE ]
im just gonna be blatantly honest and say you both played v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v awful.
like, wow.
why would he show this? why would he check this flop? why did u check flop? WHY O WHY DID U FOLD TURN?? EZE EZ EZ EZ E Z THREEBET... at least call.
jesus. u guys never actually played 4handed before on the internet or what?

[/ QUOTE ]

What would go through your mind after seeing a seemingly good player take that line? I was very confused more than anything but you say easy call or 3 bet and I just wonder what you would expect him to have there.

Thanks,
DeathDonkey

Re: Protected Pot Bluff
 

something that is not a pair and he capped.

Re: Protected Pot Bluff
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i am positive that this is a preflop fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not 4 handed.

[/ QUOTE ]

sweet guys. go ahead and play <font color="red"> dominated </font> hands in huge pots out of position.

[/ QUOTE ]
LOL

Re: Protected Pot Bluff
 

[ QUOTE ]
Bump because I still can't believe this worked.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

Good laydown. Josh is capping out of the SB into 2 early players, then c/ring the turn after you bet and the LAG calls. Given his line, it's reasonable to think he whiffed on the flop c/r and decided to try for it again on the turn. Don't beat yourself too hard. HE showed you his hand for a reason--he made a play on you and it worked. Move on. It happens.

Re: Protected Pot Bluff
 

[ QUOTE ]
UTG is DeathDonkey
Button is a solid LAGTAG

Party Poker 30/60 Hold'em (4 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero caps</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG calls, Button calls.

Flop: (13 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG checks, Button checks.

Turn: (6.50 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Button calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>.

Final Pot: 10.50 BB

on one hand, he shouldn't expect me to try to checkraise twice with a big hand, but on the other, he still has a good player behind him.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good move, given the postflop action; it's hard to convince oneself that any of them hit that board given their actions postflop. I think this move works because of 4 things:

Your position in the SB preflop
The board
The action
The opponents

Re: Protected Pot Bluff
 

[ QUOTE ]
UTG is DeathDonkey
Button is a solid LAGTAG

Party Poker 30/60 Hold'em (4 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero caps</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG calls, Button calls.

Flop: (13 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG checks, Button checks.

Turn: (6.50 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Button calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>.

Final Pot: 10.50 BB

on one hand, he shouldn't expect me to try to checkraise twice with a big hand, but on the other, he still has a good player behind him.

[/ QUOTE ]
I've played up to 30/60 and after 13 years of playing, I've seen the turn go bet, call, raise, fold, fold maybe 4 times in my life...regardless of the action leading up to it.

In this thread, there is some serious FPS and 6th level thinking going on. BTW, when playing online, any thinking above the 3rd level will cloud your judgement and cause you to "out-think" yourself very often.

Some of the replies that I'd like to address:

(To DeathDonkey)
[ QUOTE ]
WHY O WHY DID U FOLD TURN?? EZE EZ EZ EZ E Z THREEBET

[/ QUOTE ]
That's just insane. We know a 3-bet will drive out the caller unless he's got 88, 77 or 55. But what about Josh? Check raising a bettor and a caller on the turn is a bluff like never % of the time. I can't belive Josh even attempted this bluff and I'm 1000X more surprised that it worked.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i am positive that this is a preflop fold.

[/ QUOTE ]
Not 4 handed.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with Victor here. You'd have to arrange the cards (in their ranges) pretty nicely in your favor for this preflop cap to be good.


[ QUOTE ]
After the flop is checked through I'd also bet the turn. I see no evidence at all that your hand isn't best.

[/ QUOTE ]
Part of the evidence is 3 players in for a preflop cap. I know that doesn't mean much 4 handed, but I agree with you when you say that Josh should play like he has the best hand once he decides to cap preflop. I do not, however, agree with a cap. Also, FWIW, a betless flop is even more fishy than ones that have bets. Just because fastplaying is correct in a larger sized pot doesn't mean people don't still slowplay.



As a side note......

Unless the 4th player in this game is a complete mope, why are you guys playing? This game looks really bad and this hand is an example of how you will have to throw many bets into a pot in order to protect a miniscule (if any) EV edge. That may be necessary in 150/300, but NOT in 30/60.

Re: Protected Pot Bluff
 

our house, it seems you havent played 30/60 4handed online.
if u have, u lost.

Re: Protected Pot Bluff
 

[ QUOTE ]
our house, it seems you havent played 30/60 4handed online.
if u have, u lost.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why would I play 4 handed 30/60 with Josh, DeathDonkey and some LAGTAG? My testosterone level isn't high enough for that. There are a zillion better places for me to make more money with less variance.

Re: Protected Pot Bluff
 

ive played in FAAARRR worse games (for higher stakes too), but then again im an idiot...
my game selection is absolutely awful at times.

Re: Protected Pot Bluff
 

[ QUOTE ]
ive played in FAAARRR worse games (for higher stakes too), but then again im an idiot...
my game selection is absolutely awful at times.

[/ QUOTE ]
At higher limits (100/200+) there's no choice most of the time. But, that's ok. The dollar amount of the game doesn't require your winrate to be that high in order to have a pretty significant earn.

Re: Protected Pot Bluff
 

please explain what is incorrect about his thinking, as i've had trouble adjusting mine from 10/20 20/40 to 30/60

Re: Protected Pot Bluff
 

[ QUOTE ]
Doesn't make much sense to me as a bluff.

[/ QUOTE ]

100% agree, why play a strong hand like this against 2 preflopraisers?

[ QUOTE ]
why didn't you bet the flop yourself? If you don't think you are decently likely to have the best hand on this flop then why cap pf instead of fold?


[/ QUOTE ]

100% agree, why give freecards to KQ, KT and such?

[ QUOTE ]

After the flop is checked through I'd also bet the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

100% agree, why give freecard a second time?

Of course its playerdependent and I havent played enough 30/60 to tell whats normal but since pot is now so big and since turncheckraise really doesnt make sense as a strong hand (If our Hero is prepared to play a strong hand like this I guess he is also prepared to play a weak hand like this, thats what I would think, trickiness normally goes both ways), will not any pocketpair, AK and AQ call down? Maybe AQ will fold, but it sure is an expensive way to find out.

Re: Protected Pot Bluff
 

[ QUOTE ]
Unless the 4th player in this game is a complete mope

[/ QUOTE ]

Ding ding ding! Plus Josh was doing stuff like this! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

-DeathDonkey

Re: Protected Pot Bluff
 

yeah he cant put me on a pair, or at least shouldnt. maybe because it was a protected pot he could still think that maybe i played it weird or made a stupid slowplay? though i was not sober when i played it or when i posted it so at least i have some stupid excuse for my stupid hand and stupid post

Re: Protected Pot Bluff
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Unless the 4th player in this game is a complete mope

[/ QUOTE ]

Ding ding ding! Plus Josh was doing stuff like this! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]


and i was not sober