J4o
 

15/30 at the HG. I sit down and post in the CO. It's folded to me, and I see the gorgeous J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. I check my option.

Button folds, SB completes, and BB checks. Flop comes down 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. SB checks, BB bets.

Should I bother with this pot?

Read: obviously since I just sat down everyone is unknown; but the BB is a young Asian kid in a white hoodie with his chips stacked neatly and his hat tilted to the side. Stereotype says he also plays NL.

Re: J4o
 

What would be the minimum hand you raise with pf in your situation? I raise pretty much 100% of the time when folded to me in the CO as a poster.

You have position though so I'd raise the flop. You'll get a free card very often.

Re: J4o
 

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What would be the minimum hand you raise with pf in your situation?

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I've always wondered about it, then realized there are more pressing concerns when Rick Nebiolo told me: "how many times per session do you post in the cutoff?" (relative to how many times you are in other situations that are worth thinking about in more detail).

I think I'm probably raising 76s+, 87o+, any pair, J8o+, maybe T7o but it would depend on who the blinds were. J4o is just way too trashy for me to bother putting more money into this pot in an attempt to blind-steal. Also, I don't know the button, and getting cold-called by him sucks maple bars.

Re: J4o
 

If this hand gets folded to me I'll not have looked at my cards yet but I'm throwing in four more chips.

Re: J4o
 

I thought this spot was an auto-raise preflop with any two cards because of the discount.

Re: J4o
 

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I'm throwing in three more chips.

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[img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Re: J4o
 

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I'm throwing in three more chips.

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[img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

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Nit.

To elaborate, I'll throw in four chips even though I know it's a three-chip game so the blinds think I'm overly excited with my hand and just fold. It's called giving off a tell. Learn it you noob.

Thanks for thinking outside the [censored] box!

Re: J4o
 

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I thought this spot was an auto-raise preflop with any two cards because of the discount.

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Yeah, I raise any two. I also don't actually like doing it and deep down am hoping someone in front of me will enter the pot so I can check, call, or fold instead.

I wonder sometimes, if our opponents knew we were raising any two, would it still be a good play?

Re: J4o
 

I would at least call.

I'm having trouble sorting this one out in my mind, since I think there's some chance you're ahead of BB here (or that he just has a draw also, even if you're not ahead), and that makes me want to consider raising and taking an aggressive line. At the same time, though, the pot is small, and I don't know that it's worth putting up a big fight, with a one-card straight draw (which may be what BB also has) and one crappy overcard.

Re: J4o
 

I'm not folding this flop.
Outs:
oesd: 6.5
overcard: 2
bdfd: 0.5

With these outs we have the odds to call the flop. Plus we can count on having implied odds. The question now comes to if we should call or raise, and if we raise should we follow through on the turn?

I think I raise the flop and check the turn for a freecard (if offered). There's about not value in betting the turn for a free sd so I like to take the freecard, and only a weak/tight read can change that. If we bet the turn I think we're commited to fire again on the river to fold A/Q-high hands.

Re: J4o
 

OESD, overcard, and a decent club are more than enough to justify continuing getting 4:1 immediately.

-Eric

Re: J4o
 

[ QUOTE ]
I thought this spot was an auto-raise preflop with any two cards because of the discount.

[/ QUOTE ]

I used to do this, and hated every minute of the constant 3-bets and coldcalls and flops full of nothing I had to endure. Then one day I realized... I don't have to do this any more. So I stopped. I'm a happier person now.

-Eric

Re: J4o
 

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If this hand gets folded to me I'll not have looked at my cards yet but I'm throwing in four more chips.

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Which means the button doesn't need to bother looking at his cards either before he 3-bets. Good luck with that.

I suspect this was a great play before HFAP popularized it. Live, sure, go ahead and raise. Online? You have to show a little more discretion. Too many people are aware of this bluff now.

-Eric

Re: J4o
 

I'm pretty sure this hand is live [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: J4o
 

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[ QUOTE ]
If this hand gets folded to me I'll not have looked at my cards yet but I'm throwing in four more chips.

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Which means the button doesn't need to bother looking at his cards either before he 3-bets. Good luck with that.

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Watch people when you're playing; most of them aren't paying attention to you.

Re: J4o
 

I'd raise and bet it all the way.

Re: J4o
 

[ QUOTE ]
raise the flop and check the turn for a freecard (if offered). There's about not value in betting the turn for a free sd so I like to take the freecard, and only a weak/tight read can change that. If we bet the turn I think we're commited to fire again on the river to fold A/Q-high hands.

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You make it sound like it's a bad thing to show up at the river obligated to bluff. Not only is it positive ev to bluff this river after betting all the way, you add in possible folds by your opponent on the flop and turn, and it's like taking candy from a baby. Seriously, don't fear setting yourself up for a river bluff. Sure they fail more than they succeed, but they can be very positive ev if you've been the aggressor.

Re: J4o
 

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[ QUOTE ]
raise the flop and check the turn for a freecard (if offered). There's about not value in betting the turn for a free sd so I like to take the freecard, and only a weak/tight read can change that. If we bet the turn I think we're commited to fire again on the river to fold A/Q-high hands.

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You make it sound like it's a bad thing to show up at the river obligated to bluff. Not only is it positive ev to bluff this river after betting all the way, you add in possible folds by your opponent on the flop and turn, and it's like taking candy from a baby. Seriously, don't fear setting yourself up for a river bluff. Sure they fail more than they succeed, but they can be very positive ev if you've been the aggressor.

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You're correct, the reason we're commited to bet the river is because it's +ev. But after getting called on the flop in a tiny pot I don't thinking betting the turn is.

Re: J4o
 

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Watch people when you're playing; most of them aren't paying attention to you.

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I don't understand how the table's previous attention to my play makes a difference in my first decision at a new table. Either it's +EV given the way people handle this raise by default, or it isn't. I think it isn't.

istewart points out that this hand was played live though, so I don't have a problem with it there. I play almost entirely online and find that people are constantly making moves against this CO raise, as they should if you raise any 2.

-Eric

Re: J4o
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Watch people when you're playing; most of them aren't paying attention to you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand how the table's previous attention to my play makes a difference in my first decision at a new table. Either it's +EV given the way people handle this raise by default, or it isn't. I think it isn't.

istewart points out that this hand was played live though, so I don't have a problem with it there. I play almost entirely online and find that people are constantly making moves against this CO raise, as they should if you raise any 2.

-Eric

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I don't look at my cards until the action is on me. I watch every other player make their decisions. When the action is folded to me and I have posted I will blind raise. You said the Button will then blind 3-bet. I am saying most of them aren't paying enough attention to know that I didn't look at my cards.

Re: J4o
 

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OESD, overcard, and a decent club are more than enough to justify continuing getting 4:1 immediately.

-Eric

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would this actually make a case for raising this flop. we have a good amount to work with, and the BB could very well be stealing the pot since we checked our option in the CO

Re: J4o
 

combination of draws make this an easy raise. The raise is especially important b/c your overcard is only a J

Re: J4o
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
OESD, overcard, and a decent club are more than enough to justify continuing getting 4:1 immediately.

-Eric

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would this actually make a case for raising this flop. we have a good amount to work with, and the BB could very well be stealing the pot since we checked our option in the CO

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Yes, he could be. But there isn't much to fight for, especially after rake.

Re: J4o
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Watch people when you're playing; most of them aren't paying attention to you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand how the table's previous attention to my play makes a difference in my first decision at a new table. Either it's +EV given the way people handle this raise by default, or it isn't. I think it isn't.

istewart points out that this hand was played live though, so I don't have a problem with it there. I play almost entirely online and find that people are constantly making moves against this CO raise, as they should if you raise any 2.

-Eric

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I don't look at my cards until the action is on me. I watch every other player make their decisions. When the action is folded to me and I have posted I will blind raise. You said the Button will then blind 3-bet. I am saying most of them aren't paying enough attention to know that I didn't look at my cards.

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I see. I think you misunderstood me. What I'm saying is not that he will notice that you didn't look, what I'm saying is that if your strategy is to raise the CO no matter what you hold, then it's then proper for the button to 3-bet you in exactly the same manner.

I'm not talking about him picking up a tell. I'm talking about him already knowing that this is your strategy, and that he is in a position to make you pay for it.

That wouldn't matter if people didn't do this, but in my experience, they do, and from the SB and BB as well. They just seem to constantly take shots when you make this very weak raise.

I can't say about live, I suspect it wouldn't happen as much. I'm just pointing out that the raise is inherently incorrect, you are trying to take advantage of the fact that players will be inclined to give you credit when you raise. That may have been true years ago, but these days, especially online, it just isn't any more. They know you're raising any 2, and they play correctly or almost correctly against it, which then makes it wrong to make the raise in the first place.

But whatever, it doesn't make that much difference to your bottom line anyways. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

-Eric