Countering a Good Hand Reader
 

+2 is a TAG poster and does a good job of reading hands and playing his hand accordingly.

UTG is not much to talk about. On the tightish side, but passive.

UTG limps, +2 raises, folded to me in BB with A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], I call, UTG calls

Flop is 5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

I check, UTG checks, +2 bets, I check/raise, UTG folds, +2 makes it 3.

Obviously if he called the flop, I'd bet any turn hoping to 3 bet. However, given his flop 3 bet, what sort of cards on the turn determine how you'll maximize the deception you've gained here.

Re: Countering a Good Hand Reader
 

would he really think you'd never do this with a really strong hand (set or straight)? all i'm saying is that since he is a good hand reader A4s, 55, 33, 22, and 64s should make up part of the range of hands you play this way, so i don't see how this is deceptive.

i am calling this 3-bet and hoping a non-[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7 through K or 3 or 2 falls on the turn so i can bet 3-bet it.

Re: Countering a Good Hand Reader
 

A -- Torn between betting and checking. Often overcard to many of his pairs, puts 4 straight on the board. Check-raise to sometimes collect another bet and occasionally cap on AA?

K -- also often an overcard, but not nearly as bad. bet to avoid missing bets and three bet when he realizes you rarely have K4.

QJT -- c/r/cap to catch his turned set.

diamonds - c/r hoping to get one from pairs w/o diamonds and two from pairs with.

Everything else is a c/r, I think.

Re: Countering a Good Hand Reader
 

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+2 is a TAG poster and does a good job of reading hands and playing his hand accordingly.

UTG is not much to talk about. On the tightish side, but passive.

UTG limps, +2 raises, folded to me in BB with A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], I call, UTG calls

Flop is 5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

I check, UTG checks, +2 bets, I check/raise, UTG folds, +2 makes it 3.

Obviously if he called the flop, I'd bet any turn hoping to 3 bet. However, given his flop 3 bet, what sort of cards on the turn determine how you'll maximize the deception you've gained here.

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I'm still not sure why you called a PFR with suited trash OOP in a 3 handed pot. I fold this everytime when a good player is raising

Re: Countering a Good Hand Reader
 

Call.

Then bet the turn.

Re: Countering a Good Hand Reader
 

Given that you checkraised the flop for elimination the good Tag will already put you on a one pair type hand or a flush draw or a straight draw or maybe total air since you know this is a board that will likely miss everybody.

So youve already done your job of disguising your hand just by the way you played the flop and it shows by the extra action youve already induced your tag opponent to dish out.

Now you need to cap right away on the flop and lead the turn. This line is better than calling the flop 3 bet and betting the turn becuz the villain may get suspicious and just call down.

The cap flop lead turn line is also better than calling the 3bet and checkraising the turn becuz the former line will induce the villain to draw dead more often.

To show you what I mean, I'll give you an example. Lets say the villain has JJ, and you call the flop 3 bet and the turn is an Ace or even a King. Now when you checkraise here, the villain may fold, but if you capped the flop and lead the turn, the villain is now much more likely to call down no matter what hits the turn or river.

Re: Countering a Good Hand Reader
 

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+2 is a TAG poster and does a good job of reading hands and playing his hand accordingly.

UTG is not much to talk about. On the tightish side, but passive.

UTG limps, +2 raises, folded to me in BB with A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], I call, UTG calls

Flop is 5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

I check, UTG checks, +2 bets, I check/raise, UTG folds, +2 makes it 3.

Obviously if he called the flop, I'd bet any turn hoping to 3 bet. However, given his flop 3 bet, what sort of cards on the turn determine how you'll maximize the deception you've gained here.

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I'm still not sure why you called a PFR with suited trash OOP in a 3 handed pot. I fold this everytime when a good player is raising

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In this situation I would also fold, given that we have a good tag raising from an early position against an early position limper, this means there is a higher probability than normal that the hero is drawing to 3 outs or less, which means there is also a higher probability than normal that the hero will make a second best hand. This is a situation I like to avoid even when I'm getting 5-1 to participate.

Now if you change the action to, guy open limps in MP1, good tag raises in CO, folded to BB, now A4s is too strong of a hand to consider folding even though the hero would still be OOP in a 3 handed pot.

Re: Countering a Good Hand Reader
 

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Call.

Then bet the turn.

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I'd do this too.

He'll raise a lot because he will reading your hand as a pair trying to not allow a free card to overcards and you can 3bet a lot. Also, you don't want him checking behind ever. A c/r will make him fold hands on the turn after only putting 1 bet in that he would've put in 2.

Re: Countering a Good Hand Reader
 

Fold preflop.

Call the flop.

Bet the turn.

Re: Countering a Good Hand Reader
 

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Call.

Then bet the turn.

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Re: Countering a Good Hand Reader
 

Screw this call then bet the turn stuff. Way too many scare cards can come off that cost you turn action. Get the 4th bet in now and lead.

Re: Countering a Good Hand Reader
 

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Screw this call then bet the turn stuff. Way too many scare cards can come off that cost you turn action. Get the 4th bet in now and lead.

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Eh, I only think you're losing bets about ~20% of the time online (18% FD + 3ish aces). A 4-bet+lead would work against more aggressive opposition so I def. don't mind it but I find myself getting raised on the turn a lot less when I cap the flop.

Realistically he isn't putting us on A4s either way though.

Rob

Re: Countering a Good Hand Reader
 

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Screw this call then bet the turn stuff. Way too many scare cards can come off that cost you turn action. Get the 4th bet in now and lead.

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I think a cap/lead is more likely to kill the action than the probability of 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]s and 3 A or K possible overcards to his pair hitting are. So something like 25% of the time our action might be killed by the turn card.

Only if he's on the LAG side of TAG would I cap/lead.

Re: Countering a Good Hand Reader
 

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Screw this call then bet the turn stuff. Way too many scare cards can come off that cost you turn action. Get the 4th bet in now and lead.

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I could not agree more with this statement, if any A,4 or diamond hits the turn or an overcard to the villains pocket pair, the hero will wish he wouldve capped the flop since the villain will be very unlikely to raise the turn. The hero induced extra action from the card reader by checkraising the flop. The hero should cash in on his deceptive play right now on the flop by capping.

Re: Countering a Good Hand Reader
 

Whatever you do, DO NOT CHECK THE TURN.

I think calling and betting and capping are both reasonable lines. I prefer capping because there is no chance at all that UTG+2 is folding on the turn to a cap and lead, while there is still a chance that he raises the turn. I think the ability to bet/3bet the turn is not so different between calling and capping the flop that calling makes up the missed SB.

Re: Countering a Good Hand Reader
 

I hate checking the turn and he's unlikely to fold the turn but I think you're lucky if he raises the turn half of the time regardless of which line you choose so I'd just get an extra .5 SB now.

Re: Countering a Good Hand Reader
 

The turn came the 4 of clubs. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

I did just call the flop 3 bet, and then wish I hadn't.

I bet the turn, and he just called down with JJ after another rag hit the river.

Re: Countering a Good Hand Reader
 

IMHO. Hindsight will always determine how good your flop play was on this hand.

Re: Countering a Good Hand Reader
 

Heres something no one mentioned: If hes a good hand reader - and has you pegged as a solid player too.....

Isn't there like no way he'll peg you on A4 there as pretty much everyone agrees you should've folded pre-flop?

If you cap it - it seems like he'll think you have a set or top pair w/your suited connectors.

Re: Countering a Good Hand Reader
 

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Screw this call then bet the turn stuff. Way too many scare cards can come off that cost you turn action. Get the 4th bet in now and lead.

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I think a cap/lead is more likely to kill the action than the probability of 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]s and 3 A or K possible overcards to his pair hitting are. So something like 25% of the time our action might be killed by the turn card.

Only if he's on the LAG side of TAG would I cap/lead.

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The thing is that since everyone is advocating call/lead rather than call/checkraise, it should be obvious that the 4-bet lead line is vastly superior. Especially on a board that drawy, our opponent isn't folding anything to that line. The only justification for call/leading is if you think he'll raise the turn with an overpair, letting us 3-bet, but that doesn't seem to be part of the thought process here.

Re: Countering a Good Hand Reader
 

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The only justification for call/leading is if you think he'll raise the turn with an overpair, letting us 3-bet, but that doesn't seem to be part of the thought process here.

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The only reason I call/lead rather than 4-bet lead is because I think you're getting raised on the turn a lot more often with a call-lead. Should have made that more clear in my original post.

Rob

Re: Countering a Good Hand Reader
 

4 bet then bet the turn. You hate any 6,4,A,5 because this kills your action. If you call and hes on Ax you just gave him a free suckout for 1/2 the pot.

Re: Countering a Good Hand Reader
 

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The only justification for call/leading is if you think he'll raise the turn with an overpair, letting us 3-bet, but that doesn't seem to be part of the thought process here.

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The only reason I call/lead rather than 4-bet lead is because I think you're getting raised on the turn a lot more often with a call-lead. Should have made that more clear in my original post.

Rob

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But even then, I'm assuming this good hand reader is folding, right? So from the posted decision point on, we still only collect 2BBs vs a far more likely 2.5. Also, there will be times when we are getting 3-bet by the TAG when he/she has overs like AdKs and that 4th bet on the flop becomes pure gravy.

You'd have to be reasonably certain that they'd rarely 3-bet the flop with overs (I can't imagine that this qualifier is met), that they'll raise the turn when they don't (and lots of scare cards will stop this even if it is their intention), and that they'll pay you off when you 3-bet (I'm guessing this is less than half the time).

I don't see how that line is preferalbe to 4-betting now on what looks like a very drawy board and steaming it through. You may *still* get raised on the turn, or (if the site allows it) 5-bet on the flop. Get the money in now.

Re: Countering a Good Hand Reader
 

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The only justification for call/leading is if you think he'll raise the turn with an overpair, letting us 3-bet, but that doesn't seem to be part of the thought process here.

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The only reason I call/lead rather than 4-bet lead is because I think you're getting raised on the turn a lot more often with a call-lead. Should have made that more clear in my original post.

Rob

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But even then, I'm assuming this good hand reader is folding, right? So from the posted decision point on, we still only collect 2BBs vs a far more likely 2.5. Also, there will be times when we are getting 3-bet by the TAG when he/she has overs like AdKs and that 4th bet on the flop becomes pure gravy.

You'd have to be reasonably certain that they'd rarely 3-bet the flop with overs (I can't imagine that this qualifier is met), that they'll raise the turn when they don't (and lots of scare cards will stop this even if it is their intention), and that they'll pay you off when you 3-bet (I'm guessing this is less than half the time).

I don't see how that line is preferalbe to 4-betting now on what looks like a very drawy board and steaming it through. You may *still* get raised on the turn, or (if the site allows it) 5-bet on the flop. Get the money in now.

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Of all of those things, the only thing I don't see as being particularly common is them folding to a turn 3-bet. People just don't seem to fold anything, ever, in these games. Especially anything they seem to be fold of raising the turn with. I agree that there are cards that will freeze them up, usually around 20-25% of the time. Also, I almost never see a 3-bet with bare overs in this sort of game. Overs+FD, maybe, maybe something like AdKx, but it's pretty rare. Sufficiently rare that I feel comfortable that you will be raised on the turn if you can make your hand look sufficiently weak.

Rob