Don\'t ever think of folding KK pre-flop
 

I see we have another 'should I fold my KK pre-flop thread' on the front page of the forum. Of course, you shouldn't... but just to re-enforce the stupidity of even thinking about it, I bring you this hand from a 22.

(I had pocket 5's, but this shows the utter donkishness that is everywhere, and why crazy pre-flop action should never get you thinking of folding KK.)

#Game No : 3216545844
***** Hand History for Game 3216545844 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $20 Buy-in + $2 Entry Fee Trny:18358005 Level:1 Blinds(10/15) - Saturday, December 17, 13:06:13 EDT 2005
Table Table 67780 (Real Money)
Seat 9 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: empera ( $800 )
Seat 5: aqrahelmi ( $800 )
Seat 8: lowkey14 ( $775 )
Seat 10: devontart ( $725 )
Seat 3: Vlorg ( $1625 )
Seat 7: cubsfan71 ( $790 )
Seat 2: clozer610 ( $160 )
Seat 4: italianrage ( $800 )
Seat 6: WCAcesUp ( $695 )
Seat 9: GMoney19781 ( $830 )
Trny:18358005 Level:1
Blinds(10/15)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to cubsfan71 [ 5h 5s ]
clozer610 folds.
Vlorg folds.
italianrage calls [15].
aqrahelmi folds.
WCAcesUp raises [85].
cubsfan71 folds.
lowkey14 folds.
GMoney19781 folds.
devontart folds.
empera raises [285].
italianrage folds.
WCAcesUp calls [215].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 5c, Ts, Qd ]
empera is all-In [500]
WCAcesUp is all-In [395]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 3c ]
** Dealing River ** [ 4s ]
empera shows [ 6c, 6d ] a pair of sixes.
WCAcesUp shows [ 7d, 7h ] a pair of sevens.
empera wins 105 chips from side pot #1 with a pair of sixes.
WCAcesUp wins 1415 chips from the main pot with a pair of sevens.
Game #3216549908 starts.

'NUFF SAID [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/ooo.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Don\'t ever think of folding KK pre-flop
 

I'm trying to figure out who played this hand worse, and my final verdict is that WCAcesUp's play is slightly more horrible than empera's.

Re: Don\'t ever think of folding KK pre-flop
 

I always post this hand when someone asks about folding KK preflop. This was from a $55. Sucks that I lost though.

***** Hand History for Game 2972657227 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $50 Buy-in + $5 Entry Fee Trny:17095588 Level:4 Blinds(50/100) - Thursday, November 03, 01:38:49 EDT 2005
Table Table 68031 (Real Money)
Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 8
Seat 1: Deceptikon ( $970 )
Seat 9: valorous ( $1380 )
Seat 6: ILIKESCOTCH2 ( $390 )
Seat 5: yeedogger ( $1255 )
Seat 4: empireny ( $2942 )
Seat 3: grizabe ( $1130 )
Seat 2: OreoMonster ( $835 )
Seat 10: accentprpl5 ( $1098 )
Trny:17095588 Level:4
Blinds(50/100)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to yeedogger [ Kh Kc ]
ILIKESCOTCH2 folds.
valorous is all-In.
accentprpl5 folds.
Deceptikon is all-In.
OreoMonster is all-In.
grizabe folds.
empireny folds.
yeedogger is all-In.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 2s, 4d, 3d ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 5d ]
** Dealing River ** [ 3s ]
yeedogger shows [ Kh, Kc ] two pairs, kings and threes.
valorous shows [ Td, Tc ] two pairs, tens and threes.
Deceptikon shows [ Kd, Ac ] a straight, ace to five.
OreoMonster shows [ Jd, Jh ] two pairs, jacks and threes.
valorous wins 125 chips from side pot #3 with two pairs, tens and threes.
yeedogger wins 570 chips from side pot #2 with two pairs, kings and threes.
Deceptikon wins 405 chips from side pot #1 with a straight, ace to five.
Deceptikon wins 3390 chips from the main pot with a straight, ace to five.

Re: Don\'t ever think of folding KK pre-flop
 

Indeed...

If the buyin is less than 30 and the level is less than 2 then a big bet or push or call can mean anything and nothing at all.

One or two players (sometimes more)at this level are playing Roullette or the lottery with their chips. They certainly are not playing poker as we know it. If you do not like that then just wait till they calm down or bust out. I can find examples of all-in with k-4.

--
tjh

Re: Don\'t ever think of folding KK pre-flop
 

I was the one who posted recently about folding KK preflop. And my reasons were based on my reads/person who I was playing against.

Let me make an example 45s. Let's say empera was me. If you saw me make that move, I bet you could narrow my hand range down tremendously.

Splashpot, I don't think your example is a good one. You can never lay down Kings after the first 2 levels.

Re: Don\'t ever think of folding KK pre-flop
 

Hey chuck, actually I was thinking of this post from today:

[ QUOTE ]
It's like the 4th hand of the STT. Somehow I've managed to loose t100. That's not the point here. I'm in the BB, with KK. It's folded to Button who makes it t40. SB calls, I raise to t150. Button (has me covered) moves all-in. SB calls. Hero??

Is this one of the rare cases I should fold, or do I press Call and close my eyes?

[/ QUOTE ]

That was from an 11. I should say that on the 33s and below, I would never fold KK pre-flop regardless of the action. (Disregarding some ridiculous, contrived bubble scenario.)

If I remember your post correctly, there was a lot of action (from decent players), and you had a feeling that you 'might' be facing aces. But you still called, correct? And as much as it sucks, I think that the consensus was that it was the right call (one that I would have made as well).

I would just say that I'm a winning player on the 33s and below, but I know my limitations: I will never have a 'read' so strong that I'm folding KK pre-flop. And nobody else on the 33s and below should either because of the tremendous donkey factor. But I do understand your point though....

Re: Don\'t ever think of folding KK pre-flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
If I remember your post correctly, there was a lot of action (from decent players), and you had a feeling that you 'might' be facing aces. But you still called, correct? And as much as it sucks, I think that the consensus was that it was the right call (one that I would have made as well).


[/ QUOTE ]

My hand went like this. UTG raised to t85 on L1 or L2. QuasiFiction made is 225 from early MP. Action to me. My point was, although I don't know QuasiFiction, he is a top 5 leaderboard player. So he either knows what he's doing, or he is a sucker. I tend to put him into a thinking player camp, so I had narrowed his hand range down to AA/KK. I had KK, and since I knew I was either a tie or a loss, I wondered if I should consider folding. I called because that's my auto-pilot, 8 tabling default line. But even though I 8 table, it slows down enough for me that I could have thought this whole thing through. So why I didn't fold, I don't know.

Regarding 'never' having a read so strong, I doubt that. I think my example I gave you was good. My advice is to start thinking about the way you play QQ. Then when you come across a player like me/Quasi/others, you'll see a subtle difference sometimes, perhaps.

Of course, this only applies to L1 or L2. Beyond that, I never fold kings.

Re: Don\'t ever think of folding KK pre-flop
 

Top 5 leaderboard means little - just that he plays alot.

His prophecy winning % is only above average (35.75%) at lower limit tables (20s, 30s)...therefore in my judgment he is just another average player who happens to play alot

My point is..don't necessarily go by the leaderboard because volume is a big factor..

Re: Don\'t ever think of folding KK pre-flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
Top 5 leaderboard means little - just that he plays alot.

His prophecy winning % is only above average (35.75%) at lower limit tables (20s, 30s)...therefore in my judgment he is just another average player who happens to play alot

My point is..don't necessarily go by the leaderboard because volume is a big factor..

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not going to address the pokerprophecy results.

You are absolutely correct about the leaderboard. But there's a little catch on this leaderboard, say against other leaderboards. You are only awarded points for firsts and seconds. I think this leaderboard carries a little more weight than a normal board.

Regardless, the leaderboard rank was only part of my decision.

Edit: out of curiosity, where do I rank on poker prophecy?

Re: Don\'t ever think of folding KK pre-flop
 

Yikes!

77 calls a reraise for 1/3 his stack and then calls off the rest on a flop with 2 overcards.

.....and wins!

Re: Don\'t ever think of folding KK pre-flop
 

Need your handle on party to get it

Re: Don\'t ever think of folding KK pre-flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
Need your handle on party to get it

[/ QUOTE ]

Scuba_Chuck

I'm only interested in my $33 results.

Re: Don\'t ever think of folding KK pre-flop
 

194 wins, 269 losses at 30 or 41.9%

Pretty good stats

Re: Don\'t ever think of folding KK pre-flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
194 wins, 269 losses at 30 or 41.9%


[/ QUOTE ]

That's surprisingly close. I have 40.5% ITM in my stats, over my last 618 tourneys.

Re: Don\'t ever think of folding KK pre-flop
 

Couldn't agree more.


PartyPoker - NL Texas Hold'em $100 Buy-in + $9 Entry Fee Tournament | Level: 5 - 7 players (Converter: PGC)


Chip Counts:
Button: 1455 Chips
SB: 2415 Chips
<font color="red">Hero: 2090 Chips</font>
UTG: 1615 Chips
UTG+1: 345 Chips
MP1: 1045 Chips
CO: 1035 Chips

Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Blinds are 75/150

PreFlop
<font color="blue">UTG folds</font>, UTG+1 is All-In, MP1 is All-In, <font color="blue">CO folds</font>, <font color="blue">Button folds</font>
<font color="blue">SB folds</font>, <font color="green">Hero Calls</font>

(3 players) FLOP: J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ( Pot Size: 2510 Chips )


(3 players) TURN: J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ( Pot Size: 2510 Chips )


(3 players) RIVER: 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ( Pot Size: 2510 Chips )


Final Pot:2510 Chips

Results in white below:
<font color="white">BB shows:KdKs,two pairs, kings and jacks</font>
<font color="white">UTG+1 shows:9hAd,a pair of jacks</font>
<font color="white">MP1 shows:TcAh,a pair of jacks</font>


Same table, some time later...


PartyPoker - NL Texas Hold'em $100 Buy-in + $9 Entry Fee Tournament | Level: 6 - 5 players (Converter: PGC)


Chip Counts:
Button: 1530 Chips
<font color="red">Hero: 2525 Chips</font>
BB: 1390 Chips
UTG: 2270 Chips
CO: 2285 Chips

Hero is SB with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Blinds are 100/200

PreFlop
<font color="red">UTG RAISES ($525)</font>, CO is All-In, Button is All-In
Hero is All-In, <font color="blue">BB folds</font>, <font color="blue">UTG folds</font>

(3 players) FLOP: 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ( Pot Size: 7065 Chips )


(3 players) TURN: 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ( Pot Size: 7065 Chips )


(3 players) RIVER: T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ( Pot Size: 7065 Chips )


Final Pot:7065 Chips

Results in white below:
<font color="white">SB shows:KcKh,two pairs, kings and twos</font>
<font color="white">CO shows:AdQd,two pairs, queens and twos</font>
<font color="white">Button shows:QcAc,two pairs, queens and twos</font>

Re: Don\'t ever think of folding KK pre-flop
 

That min threebet from CO made me think he could only have KK+, but I pushed anyway. The result shows why. So I'm guessing I won't fold KK preflop anytime soon.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

MP1 (t1215)
MP2 (t3510)
CO (t1165)
Hero (t1380)
SB (t1320)
BB (t1630)
UTG (t2020)
UTG+1 (t1260)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to t180</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t420</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to t660</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t1380</font>, CO calls t505 (All-In).

Flop: (t2590) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Turn: (t2590) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

River: (t2590) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: t2590

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
CO has Ks Qs (high card, ace).
Hero has Qh Qd (one pair, queens).
Outcome: Hero wins t2590.</font>

Re: Don\'t ever think of folding KK pre-flop
 

What if villain limps UTG you pop a raise and he reraises big? What range do you put villain on in this case? Usually it's AA or KK and if you're holding two Kings that makes the latter unlikely. How does one handle this play that is typically made with a very select group of hands?

Re: Don\'t ever think of folding KK pre-flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
What if villain limps UTG you pop a raise and he reraises big? What range do you put villain on in this case? Usually it's AA or KK and if you're holding two Kings that makes the latter unlikely. How does one handle this play that is typically made with a very select group of hands?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the point is, that they'll do this with hands you beat more than enough to make it worthwhile. Although I'm not convinced. I'd be interested in a study of how many of these 'he's got aces' reraises actually are aces.

Re: Don\'t ever think of folding KK pre-flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
Top 5 leaderboard means little - just that he plays alot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Players putting in those sorts of hours will be solid at worst. They are obviously serious players, and likely depend on sngs for income. Sure it doesn't make them the most skillful +ev players, but it is enough to treat them with respect.

Re: Don\'t ever think of folding KK pre-flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
Don't ever think of folding KK pre-flop

[/ QUOTE ]

Nothing wrong with folding KK when someone you know is playing QQ+/AK has made a bet they wouldn't with QQ &amp; AK. Very rare, but it doesn't mean it's not sometimes correct. The only reason we say to never fold kings is because it'd be natural to lay down kings more often than we should, so we do it to stop us losing EV overall. However, if you have a very strong read you should stick to it.

Re: Don\'t ever think of folding KK pre-flop
 

Against a single player never or If i cant get busted. But sometimes early on in low limit tourneys I will fold if there is more then 2 all-ins in front of me and it buts me all-in. Not that u could be facing AA but suited connectors and the likes which you do not have dominated. I include AA in this scenario. Has anyone ran it in SNGPT for AA/KK to call 3 ALL-ins ?

Re: Don\'t ever think of folding KK pre-flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
But sometimes early on in low limit tourneys I will fold if there is more then 2 all-ins in front of me and it buts me all-in

[/ QUOTE ]

That's basically the main point of my OP. If the buy-in is $33 or below, I think your policy should be to never fold KK. Period. I'll grant that for the better players at the upper buy-ins, there may be exceptions, but a low buy in player should never fold KK. You're just giving up too much all the times that you're laying down the best hand to some donk re-raising with AQo, 55, pretty suited cards, or god know's what else.

Re: Don\'t ever think of folding KK pre-flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
I always post this hand when someone asks about folding KK preflop. This was from a $55. Sucks that I lost though.

***** Hand History for Game 2972657227 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $50 Buy-in + $5 Entry Fee Trny:17095588 Level:4 Blinds(50/100) - Thursday, November 03, 01:38:49 EDT 2005
Table Table 68031 (Real Money)
Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 8
Seat 1: Deceptikon ( $970 )
Seat 9: valorous ( $1380 )
Seat 6: ILIKESCOTCH2 ( $390 )
Seat 5: yeedogger ( $1255 )
Seat 4: empireny ( $2942 )
Seat 3: grizabe ( $1130 )
Seat 2: OreoMonster ( $835 )
Seat 10: accentprpl5 ( $1098 )
Trny:17095588 Level:4
Blinds(50/100)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to yeedogger [ Kh Kc ]
ILIKESCOTCH2 folds.
valorous is all-In.
accentprpl5 folds.
Deceptikon is all-In.
OreoMonster is all-In.
grizabe folds.
empireny folds.
yeedogger is all-In.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 2s, 4d, 3d ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 5d ]
** Dealing River ** [ 3s ]
yeedogger shows [ Kh, Kc ] two pairs, kings and threes.
valorous shows [ Td, Tc ] two pairs, tens and threes.
Deceptikon shows [ Kd, Ac ] a straight, ace to five.
OreoMonster shows [ Jd, Jh ] two pairs, jacks and threes.
valorous wins 125 chips from side pot #3 with two pairs, tens and threes.
yeedogger wins 570 chips from side pot #2 with two pairs, kings and threes.
Deceptikon wins 405 chips from side pot #1 with a straight, ace to five.
Deceptikon wins 3390 chips from the main pot with a straight, ace to five.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bad call.

Re: Don\'t ever think of folding KK pre-flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
Bad call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you serious!? If so, please explain.

Re: Don\'t ever think of folding KK pre-flop
 

Folding KK Before The Flop (a thread from last month) - go down and read ilya's post.