I folded TPTK for more one bet in a big pot on the river
 

CO is 55/16 after about 200 hands, and is moderately aggressive postflop.
Button 50/7 over 200 and is passive and bad - note said 'overcalled bottom pair 3-ways'


Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is MP with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, CO calls, Button calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>.

Flop: (7.40 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, CO calls, Button calls.

Turn: (5.20 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, CO calls, Button calls.

River: (8.20 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, Button calls, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 13.20 BB

Re: I folded TPTK for more one bet in a big pot on the river
 

looks good

Re: I folded TPTK for more one bet in a big pot on the river
 

Where the 34 [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: I folded TPTK for more one bet in a big pot on the river
 

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looks good

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Re: I folded TPTK for more one bet in a big pot on the river
 

There's a good chance you're ahead of button here, but probably not both. That being said, the c/c line on the river might be best. How aggro is the CO in these spots? If you check to him, what hands will he bet or raise with? Pairs, straights, or bluff representing the draw?

A standard line here would be check and call against one opponent but not overcall. However if the river went "check, bet, call,...", the button's call won't really mean much since he'll call with lots of hands you're ahead of. I think c/c one bet back to me works here against an aggro opponent and loose river caller.

Re: I folded TPTK for more one bet in a big pot on the river
 

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A standard line here would be check and call against one opponent but not overcall.

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Re: I folded TPTK for more one bet in a big pot on the river
 

you have a player on the button who overcalled with bottom pair on the river 3-ways, and a 55/16 in the CO who's done nothing but call every street. you're missing value by checking. if you check/call you'll usually only be putting in a bet when you're beaten, but if you bet you'll get called by worse hands. you can safely fold to a raise on this board, so by bet/folding you gain 1-2 bets when ahead and lose 1 when behind. if you check/call you might not get any bets when you have the best hand, and still lose the same one bet when you're beaten. gotta bet/fold this.

Re: I folded TPTK for more one bet in a big pot on the river
 

Good post man.

Re: I folded TPTK for more one bet in a big pot on the river
 

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Where the 34 [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

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Haha, I got rid of it because it didn't mean anything. Two random numbers put on the end cuz Scotty was taken. I didn't want people thinking I was 34 years old or born in 1934 or something like that. Just like there is no MrWookie47 anymore.

Re: I folded TPTK for more one bet in a big pot on the river
 

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if you check/call you'll usually only be putting in a bet when you're beaten

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I'm not so sure about that. Since villain is only "moderately" aggro rather than very aggro, this is probably true. It's also very likely if the river goes "check, bet, call, call", hero will be inducing a bluff from CO and having the button call along with a worse hand.


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but if you bet you'll get called by worse hands

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I guess the real question to ask is how likely is CO to bluffraise this scare river? Given this situation, is he likely to be doing it more often than 1 in 14 times? I guess button could have me beaten too, since he most likely won't 3-bet 2 pair or even the idiot end of the straight. I don't know, now you're getting tremendous odds in a pot where I honestly think hero might be good more often than this. Some LAG's tend to get tricky in spots like this, especially when the pot gets big.

Unless I have a perfect read on the CO, I like c/c'ing. Against someone a bit more passive postflop, b/f is fine. Just MHO.

Re: I folded TPTK for more one bet in a big pot on the river
 

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you can safely fold to a raise on this board, so by bet/folding you gain 1-2 bets when ahead and lose 1 when behind. if you check/call you might not get any bets when you have the best hand, and still lose the same one bet when you're beaten.

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It's not all ONLY about gaining more bets when I'm ahead and losing less when I'm behind. It's about the chance of getting pushed off the best hand and losing a huge pot. The bet/fold line is a good line, but dangerous when misapplied. I'm willing to sacrifice a little river value once in a while in order to not cost myself the pot.

Re: I folded TPTK for more one bet in a big pot on the river
 

well, i tried. really though, moderately aggressive 5/10 6-max players aren't bluffraising the river here on a K6789 board in a multiway pot. you're just not going to see a worse hand. i know you really want to see a showdown here, but i really think that if a non-unknown is capable of bluffraising the river in a spot this bad/obvious (let alone doing it PERIOD,) you'd know about it already.

this is in fact a perfect situation to bet/fold, it's not misapplying the concept at all.

Re: I folded TPTK for more one bet in a big pot on the river
 

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well, i tried. really though, moderately aggressive 5/10 6-max players aren't bluffraising the river here on a K6789 board in a multiway pot. you're just not going to see a worse hand. i know you really want to see a showdown here, but i really think that if a non-unknown is capable of bluffraising the river in a spot this bad/obvious (let alone doing it PERIOD,) you'd know about it already.

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It happens now and then when you least expect it. You need to remember that the bet-fold gains only a fraction of a BB of EV compared to checkcalling. Say 1/4 BB just to have a number.

Compare that 1/4 BB gain with the roughly 10 BB you stand to lose from having the pot stolen and you see the true odds you are getting on this play.

I'm not saying that the bet-fold is wrong this time. Actually I'm OK with it. But I think many players underestimate the risk they are running when they use this play. It's a whole pot versus the small fraction of a bet of EV they are trying to squeeze out by betting a dicey hand.

Re: I folded TPTK for more one bet in a big pot on the river
 

yeah, of course i can't claim a bluff raise here happens never... every time you use a bet/fold line you run the risk of folding a winner. it happens, people play weird sometimes. i don't think it happens often enough for there to be any concern with it in this situation though. sure bluff raising happens, but not as much as i think most people expect. i don't think it's overly tough to fold to a raise here.

Re: I folded TPTK for more one bet in a big pot on the river
 

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i don't think it's overly tough to fold to a raise here.

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What are thoughts without Button cold-calling 2 on the river here?

Re: I folded TPTK for more one bet in a big pot on the river
 

i let it go even without button calling, although that certainly makes it closer. i don't play 5/10 6-max but i just don't think you're getting raised by a worse hand there often enough. it sounds like the button doesn't even need a better hand than you to call anyways.

Re: I folded TPTK for more one bet in a big pot on the river
 

Also, you don't actually lose 10BB when you get bluffed out, unless you're folding everytime and he bluffs 100% of the time. If the chance of him bluffing is less than what the pot is offering, you stand to lose money calling. If the chances are slightly higher, and you fold and surrender the pot, it's not a -10BB EV play.. it's a slightly -EV play. I'm explaining this crappily, but that's how it works.