LImping with AK and AQ in early levels
 

What are your thoughts on this?

Straight Flushes,

SAM

Re: LImping with AK and AQ in early levels
 

I do it too.

You may lose hand value pre-flop...but you save when you miss and you gain in disguised kicker strength when you hit (bump in implied odds I mean...)

I actually like it...though I usually raise around back with a table of limpers in front of me.

Re: LImping with AK and AQ in early levels
 

There are times when I do this.

There are also times when I fold and times when I push.

First few hands I might try to catch a maniac (low buyins). They play real foolishly for the first few hands, playing slightly less foolish than them gives you an edge, get in there and take some fish stacks before some other weak loose fish gets them!! [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Plenty of times that I do not do this though. The whole double up or bust out early question, we talk about it all the time.

A lot of limpers and if it unlikely to be raised so that I can see a flop with good pot odds for cheap. I get in there.

A known or suspected maniac pushes or has limped and I think I can get him/her to call a push with a lesser hand then I push. Some dead money in the pot might make a push +EV even if they have a little pair.

Level 2 and beyond I might raise to narrow the field.

Level 1 is a special level at the low buyins and deserves special consideration. They really do some stupid stuff for the first 8 hands or so. Getting any chips in the middle early on without a plan on what to do when they push is foolish. After the maniacs bust out and some time is invested then more rational play is the rule.

--
tjh

Re: LImping with AK and AQ in early levels
 

If we are talking about 800 chip SNGs...

I'm on the fence on this. I don't like open limping AK/AQ. Sometimes when I'm in MP/LP after a couple of limpers i prefer to limp AQ rather than raising ~1/8 of your stack and having to fold to a reraise.

With AK, i still like to raise, just because (at the 33s and lower) people will still call you with AQ and stack off with TP2K. If you miss, idk, play poker?

If we are talking about 1000 chip SNGs...

Talk to someone else.

Re: LImping with AK and AQ in early levels
 

I limp in early position, raise in late. Simple as that.

Re: LImping with AK and AQ in early levels
 

[ QUOTE ]
If we are talking about 800 chip SNGs...

I'm on the fence on this. I don't like open limping AK/AQ. Sometimes when I'm in MP/LP after a couple of limpers i prefer to limp AQ rather than raising ~1/8 of your stack and having to fold to a reraise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point. I play on PS - I bet OP does too.

Re: LImping with AK and AQ in early levels
 

raise your AKo for value if nothing else. sure you'll miss but if you raise to isolate your c-bet should work often, especially against lower buy-in opponents.

its okay to muck AQo UTG, UTG+1.

Re: LImping with AK and AQ in early levels
 

[ QUOTE ]
just because (at the 33s and lower) people will still call you with AQ and stack off with TP2K.

[/ QUOTE ]

And people willing to go down on AQ play it knowing many will go down on less. I consider it the same as losing with KK to AA. I'd only fold AQ if I knew I was up against a good player.

I don't like limping. In these short structures it's hard not to showdown overpairs and TPGK (eg AK/AQ), so I prefer to raise preflop. This causes them to make a mistake by calling preflop, and lessens any mistake I make postflop. Limping, you are giving people much better implied odds to hit 2p or something. I don't know if my thinking is correct, it's just how I feel.

Re: LImping with AK and AQ in early levels
 

I don't see how limping gives you better implied odds. It's a completely wrong way to play the hand. The point of raising with AK is to cut the action. AK in a multiway pot can lead to bad situations.

Re: LImping with AK and AQ in early levels
 

Maulik, why muck it?

Lots of idiots out there... Give them a chance to donk of their stack to you.

Re: LImping with AK and AQ in early levels
 

No I'm saying limping gives other people better implied odds.

Re: LImping with AK and AQ in early levels
 

Sorry, Mr_J. My comment was directed to this quote

[ QUOTE ]
You may lose hand value pre-flop...but you save when you miss and you gain in disguised kicker strength when you hit (bump in implied odds I mean...)

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: LImping with AK and AQ in early levels
 

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry, Mr_J. My comment was directed to this quote

[ QUOTE ]
You may lose hand value pre-flop...but you save when you miss and you gain in disguised kicker strength when you hit (bump in implied odds I mean...)

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Players are more likely to give you credit for a good kicker with a paired ace after you've raised pre-flop than if you've both limped in....(duh)

My thinking would be flawed against good players, admittedly...but the 1st level will often hold unknown fishies....

My point is that if I raise now - a decent fish may dump his A x...but if I limp and we both pair the ace post-flop, he'll call down plenty of bets. He may think his medium ace the best hand 'cuz surely someone would've raised with a 'good' kicker, right?

Generally...it seems that I take a bigger pot in level 1 when my AK hits with limping in than with raising. No data for you...just a memory thing - which I know can be flawed.

Thats not really the whole reason I limp in level 1 with these hands...but its a nice side effect.

And the - I pair - someone else two pairs thing is generally rare enough to not worry me that much. It happens. Oh well.

I'm sure my thinking obviously exposes the buy-ins I play at too.........

Re: LImping with AK and AQ in early levels
 

I think taking the structure into account you have to raise especially up to the $55's. You would be amazed at how amny people will give you their stack with a weaker ace when they hit top pair with you. I think when you limp it is just too hard to find out where you are at with six people to a flop, unless you flop the nuts.

Re: LImping with AK and AQ in early levels
 

[ QUOTE ]
raise your AKo for value if nothing else. sure you'll miss but if you raise to isolate your c-bet should work often, especially against lower buy-in opponents.

its okay to muck AQo UTG, UTG+1.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. I sometimes limp AQo behind limpers, but I will raise AQs behind limpers (both from a late enough position of course).

Re: LImping with AK and AQ in early levels
 

[ QUOTE ]

I agree. I sometimes limp AQo behind limpers, but I will raise AQs behind limpers (both from a late enough position of course).

[/ QUOTE ]

me too actually.

Re: LImping with AK and AQ in early levels
 

I play EUR 5 + 0.5 on a Scandinavian site - all complete maniacs.

I have finished ITM 8 out of 10 SnG's so far. The starting stack is 1000 - starting 10-25 with 8 minute levels. I find that raising 3-4 XBB will nearly ALWAYS get a caller - then I either 3/4 or 1/2 pot depending on colour.

I do this with weaker hands too so they never really no where I am - I take down a lot of pots on the flop - if I played it more tricky then sure I could win a few monsters. In the low buy ins though I think its best to get in and out quickly - lots of small, uncontested pots, rather than a couple of big ones where you may have let an idiot in with two pair, a set e.t.c

I know Im no regular so what I say isnt meant to be advice, just my observation of play at my tables.

Re: LImping with AK and AQ in early levels
 

[ QUOTE ]
if I played it more tricky then sure I could win a few monsters. In the low buy ins though I think its best to get in and out quickly - lots of small, uncontested pots, rather than a couple of big ones where you may have let an idiot in with two pair, a set e.t.c

[/ QUOTE ]

You just summarized my online frustration of the last two months. Thank you. I'm gonna revert back playing like what you just said... I wonder if thats how I played back when I used to...ya know...WIN...

Re: LImping with AK and AQ in early levels
 

It's better to just pick up the small, uncontested pots in all SNGs, in my opinion. Sometimes it's good to be "tricky" (if you can call it that) by check-raising all in on a co-ordinated board, but that is necessary to prevent reverse implied odds from acting against you and so on. But for the most part, play your big hands fast and strong, and you really won't go far wrong at ANY level.

Re: LImping with AK and AQ in early levels
 

The best is when AA limps preflop and runs into 2p or set made on the flop, and then proceeds to whine about a 'bad beat'.

Re: LImping with AK and AQ in early levels
 

Raising AK/AQ:
1) Thins the field, which you want.
2) Obtains greater preflop value for your hand.
3) Increases your FE on the flop (ie - flop comes T-high, you've missed...but your opponent who calls your raise with 66 is unsure of what to do, and many times folds).
4) Increases the chance of stacking a lesser ace or king (more money in the pot, harder for them to lay down a worse TP).
5) Over the long haul, will increase the number of times you stack someone when you raise with AA-QQ. If you don't raise AK/AQ, SOME people (esp. at higher levels) will start to notice that and won't pay you off on your bigger hands...whereas if you DO raise AK/AQ, some of your bigger donks will call your AA raise with 33 and then push when no AKQ hits the board...a lovely thing when you're holding an overpair. In short, provides deception (granted, this is an ancillary benefit of the raise).

Now...I know that when you raise, get called, miss, c-bet, only to be forced to fold...that sucks. But it's also what the mind remembers most about AK/AQ. You don't remember all the times that you raise and pick up the blinds or get called by one or two people and pick up nice little pots whether you hit or not. Those hands just don't stand out as being nearly as significant in the long run, and I think we easily forget the +tEV value of raising these hands preflop.

Note: I do agree, with AQo and late-middle to late position with 2+ limpers in front of me, I'll limp. But with AK or AQs, I still raise. Also, remember your gap concept and don't call more than min-raises or raises where you've totally been priced in with AQ (esp. offsuit and/or OOP).

Re: LImping with AK and AQ in early levels
 

The reason I don't raise in early position is the times you get one caller behind me, the flop comes 25J, I continuation bet and he goes all in with 77. This happens way too often.

Re: LImping with AK and AQ in early levels
 

I generally do this in 1 regularly occuring situation. If there are loose players at the table (which is generally the case at the lower buyin SNGs, 33-, depending on the day and time), and I'm in early position. If in late position, I play AK/AQ straightforward and raise.

If in early position, it'll be too likely I'll get 5 callers and play AK/AQ out of position multiway. Limping is intended to control the pot size the way I want it...since my raise can't make this heads up and I don't like to have to put in 1/4 my stack (800-90preflop raise = 710; 4 callers gives 360 pot, 180=half pot) as a 1/2 pot continuation bet (even when I flop TPTK), and if I check someone is going to always bet no matter what.

Re: LImping with AK and AQ in early levels
 

I usually raise AK, though I sometimes limp. I always fold AQ. Pokerstars.