5-10 live and a proper free showdown play. (I think)
 

Ten handed at Greektown. The SB is a typical 5-10 player here. Probably sees 38% of the flops and can't help but bet when checked too. And won't 3bet or even raise on the big streets without a monster. The turn caller is a pay station.


3 calls, I limp J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] in CO, button folds, SB calls, BB checks.

(6 SB)
FLOP: 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]


It's checked around.


(3 BB)
TURN: 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]


SB bets, BB folds, fold, call, fold, I raise, SB 3bets, fold, I fold......

Re: 5-10 live and a proper free showdown play. (I think)
 

I really don't like it at all. Folding to the 3-bet is a no-brainer, but in relation to WillMagic's recent post, what hands does he have that make this FSP worthwhile? Nothing outside of a diamond draw. I think he has a pair much more often. I'd call down but if I raised the turn and wasn't 3-bet I don't see why you wouldn't bet the river.

Re: 5-10 live and a proper free showdown play. (I think)
 

raise preflop.

Re: 5-10 live and a proper free showdown play. (I think)
 

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raise preflop.

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Meh, whatever.

Re: 5-10 live and a proper free showdown play. (I think)
 

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[ QUOTE ]
raise preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Meh, whatever.

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you are sacrificing a lot of EV by not raising this preflop in late position in a loose passive live game. A 5/10 party game limping and raising are closer to neutral EV, but in a live game like the one described in the OP raising is clearly > calling IMO.

Re: 5-10 live and a proper free showdown play. (I think)
 

And what do you think about the more interesting part, namely the turn?

I'd say its a value raise and easy fold to the 3-bet. But it should be with the intention to bet the river if noone raises, not for a free showdown.

Re: 5-10 live and a proper free showdown play. (I think)
 

since there is a caller in between SB and hero I think this a clear raise/fold to a 3-bet. The reason being is that we are likely ahead of the caller and would like to charge him the times he has a decent draw and we should find out fairly quickly if we are crushed by the sb. OTOH, if sb had bet and everybody folds to us then I favor just calling down.

Also, if I raise the turn and am not 3-bet I am betting most rivers.

Re: 5-10 live and a proper free showdown play. (I think)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
raise preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Meh, whatever.

[/ QUOTE ]
you are sacrificing a lot of EV by not raising this preflop in late position in a loose passive live game. A 5/10 party game limping and raising are closer to neutral EV, but in a live game like the one described in the OP raising is clearly > calling IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess I don't really see the significance in the fact that it's a passive game. I mean, if you flop a big draw are you ever actually taking a free card on the flop?

Re: 5-10 live and a proper free showdown play. (I think)
 

I'm raising preflop.

Raise/fold to a 3bet on turn. value bet the river.

Re: 5-10 live and a proper free showdown play. (I think)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
raise preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Meh, whatever.

[/ QUOTE ]
you are sacrificing a lot of EV by not raising this preflop in late position in a loose passive live game. A 5/10 party game limping and raising are closer to neutral EV, but in a live game like the one described in the OP raising is clearly > calling IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess I don't really see the significance in the fact that it's a passive game. I mean, if you flop a big draw are you ever actually taking a free card on the flop?

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because JTs will so often flop something (pair, gutshot, OESD, flush draw, monster, etc.) a passive game will often allow us to see the river for less than one BB by betting the flop and then checking the turn.

Re: 5-10 live and a proper free showdown play. (I think)
 

I sometimes raise this preflop in this position (or UTG) or even a hand like 98s, and sometimes I just call. It depends on how much I've been raising at that point and if they've seen me bet flop and check/fold turn recently. It's not a big EV difference either way. I just felt on this hand that it would be better to not be noticed at the moment.

The reason I would check river if called is because of QJ/KJ or even a 7 that wants to get in check/raise. Also, what if a Q,K, or A hits? Am I really betting the river then after SB calls a raise?

Re: 5-10 live and a proper free showdown play. (I think)
 

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The reason I would check river if called is because of QJ/KJ or even a 7 that wants to get in check/raise. Also, what if a Q,K, or A hits? Am I really betting the river then after SB calls a raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah you are likely chopping or have fallen behind if an A,K, or Q falls so I don't mind checking behind here, unless you think he would bet out with a smaller pair on the turn?

Re: 5-10 live and a proper free showdown play. (I think)
 

My image at this point is also quite strong. The only winning hands I've shown down is flopped quads where I managed to check/raise 3 people on the turn after a bet from my immediate left and a flush that I bet on flop and turn that hit river.

So if they see me raise the turn it should seem extra strong, even to them. Which is another reason that if called I'm checking river. He probably folds 88 or 99 on turn.

Re: 5-10 live and a proper free showdown play. (I think)
 

Given the description of both opponent's this turn seems pretty standard to me. River I may bet (if not for the 3-bet obviously) considering the turn better is a blind and your kicker is likely good...if it still plays by then.