Quirky blind steal battle - A9o
 

5/10 6-max (4-handed)

Hero is Button and open-raises A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. 64/23 BB calls. I have good stats on Villain. Like most 64/23's he is a big LAG postflop but the street-by-street stats show that he isn't at all typical. Most of his peers bet a lot and raise not so much. This player bets somewhat less than you would expect but is a heavy raiser on all streets and a heavy checkraiser on the flop and turn. He also folds considerably less than his peer group.

Anyway, flop is T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Check, bet, checkraise, and Hero calls. 4 BB to the turn.

Turn is 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] giving me a gutshot to the straight flush. Villain checks and Hero ???.

Re: Quirky blind steal battle - A9o
 

He could be going for another CR, I think it seems obvious to take the free card. I only play .5/1, so take my advice with a grain of salt (or less).

Re: Quirky blind steal battle - A9o
 

Is villain the type of player to pull off two checkraises in a row? These players are pretty rare to me. The question is whether we think we can value bet or not. I can see villain calling with low hearts, a couple gutshots, and other hands we beat. He doesn't fold much so I think we need to value bet the turn here. If he had a hand that beats us he would have continued betting.

Re: Quirky blind steal battle - A9o
 

Easy question that your making complex, bet again.

Re: Quirky blind steal battle - A9o
 

I'd check and call any river. The only reason to bet here is that you thing he's so bad that you want to put two in on the turn because, from what you described, he's CR'ing a ton here.

Re: Quirky blind steal battle - A9o
 

If you have good stats then either you havent seem him CR twice and then you should bet, otherwise check.

Re: Quirky blind steal battle - A9o
 

He's probably only c/r with better hands, so we can c/f this river if we miss.

Its a pretty clear bet for me, I think we're ahead a lot, and when we're not we have some good outs. If he check-raises with anything (and I mean anything), then its a little bit different.

Re: Quirky blind steal battle - A9o
 

I'm checking behind here and check/calling the river UI. If you didn't have a gutshot or a straight draw I'd be much more inclined to bet here, but you dont wanna pay two to see a river. Your hand is probably good, he might have 6 outs, but you could also be drawing to 3. Just get to the showdown as cheaply as possible here until you improve.

Re: Quirky blind steal battle - A9o
 

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He's probably only c/r with better hands, so we can c/f this river if we miss.

Its a pretty clear bet for me, I think we're ahead a lot, and when we're not we have some good outs. If he check-raises with anything (and I mean anything), then its a little bit different.

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I don't think a bet gets much (if any) value. Any that we do gain is offset by inducing a bluff and what we pick up when he whiffs a C/R and we improve.

Re: Quirky blind steal battle - A9o
 

Your giving him all the control in his hand, he's always going to be betting the river with better hands and checking through worse ones.

This is exactly why I hate taking my foot off the peddle, his little flop charade is not going to give him the hand; but thats just me.

Re: Quirky blind steal battle - A9o
 

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Your giving him all the control in his hand, he's always going to be betting the river with better hands and checking through worse ones.

This is exactly why I hate taking my foot off the peddle, his little flop charade is not going to give him the hand; but thats just me.

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I think it's alright for him to have control here. We're weak as all get-out. Lead just doesn't do much for us.

If we didn't have two weak draws here I'd definitely bet/fold the turn and check behind the river, but I do NOT want to pay two with our hand, and this is the sorta villian who could make that C/R.

The only thing betting does, IMO, is protect us from someone who has 2-6 outs. In this small pot I'm willing to give up that so I don't pay two with this weak draw.

Edit: And it also protects us from annoying bluffs, which this villian also seems capable of.

Re: Quirky blind steal battle - A9o
 

I like the check here as well. Arturiusx, you're most certainly right in saying that we give him some control with his hand, but I feel like you aren't giving enough consideration to the fact that our hand really isnt all that great either, at least for the moment; it'll probably be expensive to improve, which I think we need to keep repeating to ourselves when we are looking for the right solution here.

Re: Quirky blind steal battle - A9o
 

Hmm. I'm thinking that if we're ahead, there's a good chance on this board that Villain has a fair number of outs against us. And if he has a fair number of outs (or even if he just thinks he does), it seems like there's a good chance we're getting checkraised again.

If we're behind, we're also probably getting checkraised.

If Villain has four outs and complete garbage, then I guess maybe a bet will take it down.

But a check could encourage BB to bet whatever he has on the river, at which point we can decide whether to call or raise, depending on how much we like the river card. I'd rather have Villain stay in for free with a 4-outer if he'll fire with it on the river unimproved.

The main potential advantage to betting that I see is that Villain might charge himself 2 BBs to see the river with a hand like Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], which would be more profitable for us than checking and snapping off a 1 BB pure bluff from Villain on the river (well, it's more profitable so long as we don't let Villain steal the pot from us on the river following a turn checkraise).

I don't really know where we stand on the turn, though (it's quite possible we're the one who is drawing).

I think I like checking the turn and then calling unimproved on the river.

Re: Quirky blind steal battle - A9o
 

checking the turn and calling the river UI is the way to go. i think he goes for the back to back c/r quite often here, don't put yourself in such a tough spot when you can guarantee a 1 bb showdown.

Re: Quirky blind steal battle - A9o
 

Im checking this, i dont want to get raised on a hand we may be ahead on or have outs to improve to the best hand.

Getting C/r twice sucks. I'm sure to see a SD for 1more bet which is great and i get to see what he has(this isnt a great reason but it sure is a bonus).

Without the draws i can bet, but now with them if i bet i feel obliged to call and i dont want to pay 2BBs!

Pots small and i dont think giving him free cards is a major error.

Stellar you're reads still confuse me [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: Quirky blind steal battle - A9o
 

Bets, planning to check behind on the river if a blank hits.

Re: Quirky blind steal battle - A9o
 

Not only does checking prevent you from getting check/raised, but it also induces a bluff by him on the river, which he will probaly take. If he is behind, he may not call your turn bet, but will give you the money on the river. If you are behind, there is no reason to bet the turn. On top of all this, if you improve, you can pop him on the river.

Edit: I guess an argument for betting could be betting as a form of inducing a bluff. If he will go for the double check raise with air, betting could allow you to get a lot more of his money when he is behind, and since you have so many outs, it wouldn't hurt all that much if you were behind.

I still think checking is probably best though.

Re: Quirky blind steal battle - A9o
 

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but it also induces a bluff by him on the river,

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Villian c/r's often but bets relatively little. Why does everyone want to check to induce a bluff against this player description? If he is often checkraising with air or weak draws why would our response be to give free cards and then hope he bluffs?

I also think that the double c/r is far from a forgone conclusion here. Yes hes more likely than most to try it, but hes doing it with junk often too meaning that we have the best hand quite often in this spot.

For the people who want to bet the turn, why not 3bet the flop? He calls with any 2 preflop, the flop likely missed him and a c/r from this guy on a drawy flop shouldnt scare us that much if at all. This game is four handed, I think we really need to start punishing him on flops when our hand compares favorably to his range and we have position. If I thought he was more likely to contine bluffs on latter streets I would be much more inclined to call down.

Re: Quirky blind steal battle - A9o
 

Seems to me like the only reason to bet if he won't fold, I'm not sure how often you mean he folds post-flop with your comment, would be as a value-bet or for a free-showdown. Add the fact that he likes to check-raise the turn... then I don't like betting against this player.

Re: Quirky blind steal battle - A9o
 

i know no one ever wants to give someone a free card, but i think he'll often charge himself here by bluffing the river anyways. while i admit i didn't put much weight into the c/r often but betting relatively little thing, i think it's still unlikely that a player like this doesn't bet the river after the turn gets checked through. he's so untrustworthy that i don't feel totally comfortable folding on the river even if he c/r's the turn, but my hand is definitely not strong enough for me to want to give him the option of putting a bunch of BB in on the big streets. of course we don't know he's going to checkraise, but after he checks again on that card it seems like a c/r is pretty obvious from this guy. look at the board... i know he c/r's a lot but that turn card really wasn't a good one.

i wouldn't 3-bet the flop against this player because it sounds like he'll glady c/r the turn, and now you're definitely putting in too many bets unnecessarily. if he's going to go for another c/r on the turn often, i can call the flop c/r then decide whether i want two bets to go in on the turn when i see what falls... calling usually keeps you in control of the hand anyways.

Re: Quirky blind steal battle - A9o
 

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He's probably only c/r with better hands, so we can c/f this river if we miss.

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he probably only c/r with better hands, but it sounds like he's going to have a worse one fairly often too. so why choose a line where you put in 2 BB and don't showdown against a 64/23 when you could check behind the turn and showdown for 1 BB? you'd still be able to raise again, too.

he's often betting the river here after the turn gets checked through, so you'll be able to sleep soundly at night knowing you technically never gave him a free card. it's almost the same thing as betting the turn then checking the river UI!

Sklansky Riddle
 

This deal features an unusual situation I've never seen before.

I checked the turn, called the river, and scooped the pot.

His flop raise, his turn check, and my turn check were all correct plays in the Sklansky (Fundamental Theorem) sense.

How can that be?

I'll post the answer in a while.

Back to real poker, I'm comfortable with my decision to check the turn, but I don't have any strong feeling that it is right. There have been situations recently where whackjobs manuevered me into giving them cheap rivers/showdowns using flop checkraises and then checking. It always feels really bad when it happens. But getting checkraised twice with this piece of junk isn't exactly clever either.

Good discussion guys.

Re: Quirky blind steal battle - A9o
 

Valid points wheelz, nice post.

In truth as a general rule im not going to get too aggressive with A high against a laggy villian without more specific reads than were provided.

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i wouldn't 3-bet the flop against this player because it sounds like he'll glady c/r the turn

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This is true but we are now forcing him to show much more strength. LAG or not he is now much less likely to put us off the best hand by getting fancy, additionally I like it on flops like this where our chances to improve are unspectacular.

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while i admit i didn't put much weight into the c/r often but betting relatively little thing

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Yeah, I took the read at face value but there are allot of blanks to fill in here. It's a bit of a mystery if hes just checkraising with random holdings or if hes doing so with a piece or strong draws, the same could be said of how often he bets the river. Generally I do think there is value to be gotten out of betting mediocre hands aggressively against this guy, but I agree that this particular spot is debateable.

Results
 

Villain had 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] giving me 22 outs versus 44 cards for exactly 50% pot equity on the turn. I called his river stab and won after the 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] counterfeited his pair.

I still have no idea what his turn plan was if I bet.

Re: Results
 

My guess is he got scared of a possible turn raise and went in to check-call mode.