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-   -   Too quick to go WA/WB? (http://archives2.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=399991)

thesharpie 12-16-2005 11:37 PM

Too quick to go WA/WB?
 
Villain's been tight over 11 hands.

When I have a hand like this I think I go WA/WB too often. I'm over 2:1 to have the best hand if we give him a range of AK/AQ, AJs, KQs, AA-99. He's also probably not folding stuff except for maybe AQ and AJ, and there's a chance he overplays something I'm crushing. Raise the flop and call down a 3 bet, or do you think I get more value letting AQ/AJ hang themselves, and also discourage underpairs from folding?

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (7 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls

UncleSalty 12-16-2005 11:41 PM

Re: Too quick to go WA/WB?
 
If he's really tight then the broadway Ace combos are a much bigger percent of his 3-betting range than anything with a K. However, with only 11 hands you really don't have much of a read at all, so he may be more proficient at blind defense than you think. (Which actually makes his range even wider.) I would call here and raise any non-A turn card. If the A falls on the turn I would call down.

Edit: To clarify, I am calling the flop bet rather than raising because I think we have the best hand here a large majority of the time and I want to extract extra bets on the turn and not slow villain down.

pokergrader 12-16-2005 11:46 PM

Re: Too quick to go WA/WB?
 
I will call every street he bets (including river) and bet/call any street if he checks to me.

UncleSalty 12-16-2005 11:47 PM

Re: Too quick to go WA/WB?
 
[ QUOTE ]
I will call every street he bets (including river) and bet/call any street if he checks to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm..seems a little too weak to me, but I could be convinced. Can we agree to raise a diamond turn card? (Except maybe the ace.)

pokergrader 12-16-2005 11:56 PM

Re: Too quick to go WA/WB?
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I will call every street he bets (including river) and bet/call any street if he checks to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm..seems a little too weak to me, but I could be convinced. Can we agree to raise a diamond turn card? (Except maybe the ace.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Why exactly are we raising?

I might raise the river if he bet flop and turn, but I'm not exactly sure why I would raise the turn. What worse hands are going to call? What do you do if he 3-bets?

12-17-2005 12:49 AM

Re: Too quick to go WA/WB?
 
hmm. this is read is only over 11 hands. Maybe he's just been getting junky hands. I'm thinking we should be pretty aggressive. For fear of folding him outright, I might just call and raise the turn. I'd rather raise on the flop tho.

12-17-2005 01:29 AM

Re: Too quick to go WA/WB?
 
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d4...uy/standrd.jpg

pokergrader 12-17-2005 02:03 AM

Re: Too quick to go WA/WB?
 
[ QUOTE ]
hmm. this is read is only over 11 hands. Maybe he's just been getting junky hands. I'm thinking we should be pretty aggressive. For fear of folding him outright, I might just call and raise the turn. I'd rather raise on the flop tho.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why raise the flop? Hero knows exactly where he stands, and is taking this hand to showdown every time. I think the best way to induce mistakes from SB is confuse him by just calling the flop and perhaps calling the turn as well.

I can understand raising the turn or river, but raising the flop here is horrible IMO.

12-17-2005 02:28 AM

Re: Too quick to go WA/WB?
 
[ QUOTE ]
Why raise the flop? Hero knows exactly where he stands, and is taking this hand to showdown every time. I think the best way to induce mistakes from SB is confuse him by just calling the flop and perhaps calling the turn as well.

I can understand raising the turn or river, but r aising the flop here is horrible IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well raising on the flop is cheaper and if we get 3-bet, it would clue us into a better hand than ours. Just because villian does a continuation bet on the flop OOP, doesn't mean that he necessarily hit; he could have AQ, AJ, etc. Like someone else said, it's probably more likely he has an A than a K. Sure, he could have a AK, AA, or KK. If he's aggressive, he'll 3-bet the flop or pop on the turn if it's a true monster.

Hero calls the flop 3-bet and reevaluates (a.k.a. has a flush redraw or improves). Since the flop is pretty draw dry, it's probably more likely that we're beat on the flop if we get 3-bet.

So I'd probably muck on the turn UI/no redraw. Is this weak-tight since there's only 11 hands? Calling down doesn't seem right to me. This line saves us money when we're beat and gets more money in if we are winning on the flop. Of course, if we knew exactly where we are against villian we could have a perfect line... I'd rather let my opponents invest their money so I can develop a read as time goes on. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

smartalecc5 12-17-2005 02:46 AM

Re: Too quick to go WA/WB?
 
i agree with pg.

pokergrader 12-17-2005 02:48 AM

Re: Too quick to go WA/WB?
 
Your reasoning for raising is my exact reasoning for not raising. When I see this hand, there are two things I want:
* I want to induce mistakes from my opponent
* I want to take this to showdown

If I raise and get 3-bet, not only has the opponent learned something about me hand, but now I might be scared away from taking this to showdown. So I'm at 0/2

If I raise he he calls, I've given him information and reduced his chances of sticking around to the end with a losing hand. 0/2

If I smooth call his flop bet, he has learned little about my hand and since I have showed no aggression, he will be more likely to take it to showdown.

I don't think this is weak just to sit back and let him bet here. Giving him a range of (JJ+,ATs+,AJo+), we are a 70/30 favorite, let him bet the hands we are losing to and let us minimize our losses when hero is behind. My goal for this hand would be to call the flop and get 1 or 2 BBs for both the turn and the river, no more and no less.

Peter Harris 12-17-2005 02:55 AM

Re: Too quick to go WA/WB?
 
i like a turn raise. Funny, it seems like i am in the minority.

11 hands isn't a judgement of tightness, come on. that's not a sample. I would say call the flop, raise the turn and fold to a 3bet. If turn is called, bet a non-A river, check an A behind if checked to.

is this spewing? I hardly think so.

12-17-2005 03:04 AM

Re: Too quick to go WA/WB?
 
Good point. What happens if hero bets raises the turn to be "stop &amp; goed" (yes, I am an English masta!). Do you call the river bet?

Wouldn't the number of bets put in be the same as pokergrader's line when we're ahead and we get a showdown? I suppose it's actually an extra bet since I'm assuming we bet on the river if checked to?

PokerSparky 12-17-2005 03:10 AM

Re: Too quick to go WA/WB?
 
I hate any line that includes a fold in this hand. 11 hands doesn't tell us jack, and I'd just as soon treat this villain as an unknown.

I probably just raise the turn and call down if 3 bet.

pokergrader 12-17-2005 03:17 AM

Re: Too quick to go WA/WB?
 
[ QUOTE ]
Good point. What happens if hero bets raises the turn to be "stop &amp; goed" (yes, I am an English masta!). Do you call the river bet?

Wouldn't the number of bets put in be the same as pokergrader's line when we're ahead and we get a showdown?

[/ QUOTE ]

Its a tough decision, but against an unknown I would call.

It is also one of the reasons I like raising the river if you want to raise. If you raise the turn he can fold a worse hand and 3-bet a better one, forcing you to fold. If you raise the river, you can get that extra value from a final semi-bluff and fold to a 3-bet with even more ease than on the turn.

I feel like more often that not this hand goes something like this:

bet/call
bet/call
check/bet/call

With villian showing 88-QQ or AQ

Because if the hand goes like this:

bet/call
bet/call
bet/???

Now I am putting villian more squarly on the AK,KK-AA range and might just want to call the river. However, raise/fold also seems acceptable to me. I would like to see his cards though, because this hand is a hell of a lot easier to figure out with reads...

12-17-2005 03:29 AM

Re: Too quick to go WA/WB?
 
Yeah, your line makes sense since we don't know squat about the bad guy. He could have been getting really, really bad cards and may be looser than we think. We have no idea.

More or less I was trying to argue reasons for a flop raise since a lot of us auto raise with TPDK. With more of a read this could certainly be a better line, but we don't really know w/ 11 hands.

JoshuaD 12-17-2005 03:47 AM

Re: Too quick to go WA/WB?
 
I haven't read the thread, so this advice may have already been given.

I call down and raise the river if an A doesn't fall. I can fold to a 3-bet there, he simply doesn't 3-bet here without a FH or a 2.

thesharpie 12-17-2005 03:56 AM

Re: Too quick to go WA/WB?
 
I think raising the turn allows him to get off the hands we're beating too easy, it looks like we slowplayed a monster. If we raise the flop his pocket pair will probably calldown incase we're bluffing. Raising the turn is only good if he has AQ/AJ and would've folded to the flop raise, or if he'll calldown with a pocketpair regardless.

To those saying raise the river, is he really betting with a worse hand all the way and calling a river raise &gt;50% of the time?

JoshuaD 12-17-2005 03:58 AM

Re: Too quick to go WA/WB?
 
[ QUOTE ]
To those saying raise the river, is he really betting with a worse hand all the way and calling a river raise &gt;50% of the time?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. Put yourself in villians shoes here with TT-QQ. Now imagine you're just slightly dumber.


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