Limp-Reraise with AA/KK in EP
 

Some background:

I play 400 NL live at Commerce. I'm a tight player. I'm also somewhat new to NL ring games. So I use the words "never" and "always" a lot. That's okay for now because that's actually how I play and how I intend to play until I gain more experience in this game. In early position, I'm extremely tight. I never raise AK in EP. I never raise JJ-77 in EP. I sometimes raise QQ. I almost always raise AA/KK.

Against observant players, this seems like suicide since they'll always know what I have. Against players who aren't paying attention, I'm still not that excited.

Basically, I'm a big believer that AA/KK are strongest when they get all of the chips in preflop (or enough chips in preflop that you're going to push on any flop). If I raise preflop and get called in at least one place, I now have to play a relatively large pot OOP, and for much of the hand, I'll have no idea where I am. A good, tricky player may try to make a move on me. A crappier player may have two-pair or better. A really crappy player with a lot of chips may overplay his TPTK, and then I have the unpleasant dilemma of figuring out if he has TPTK or a hand that's really worth pushing (top two, a set, etc.). All in all, a preflop raise in EP with AA/KK just seems to bloat the pot, open up bluffing opportunities for my opponents, and basically make my life miserable.

On the other hand, there's limping. If I limp, get raised anywhere, I'll put in a re-raise and either take down a small but not insignficant pot (probably somewhere between 5 and 15 big blinds depending on number of cold-callers/limpers), or I'll get called, in which case the pot will generally be so big relative to the stacks that I'll push any flop. If I limp and no one raises, then I get to play a small pot OOP. That's fine with me. I stand to lose a very small pot or win a medium-sized one. Occasionally, I'll get involved in a large pot, but that will usually happen only if I end up with a monster (flopping the nut flush draw with aces or hitting a set against someone who has a good ace or king).

So, given that I raise so rarely in EP, I really think that limping (with the intent of reraising) as a DEFAULT play should work well in my games. It's true that my games are not generally aggressive enough that I can plan on getting in a preflop reraise. But right now, I'm not convinced that I'm really giving up much by limping and having a five, six, or seven-way flop. The players at my table are generally bad, but they're not idiots. After a few orbits, it becomes quite obvious to most players at the table that I'm tighter than most. If I choose to raise with these hands, I'll often win the blinds. That sucks. Wouldn't it be better to try a line that allows me to build a huge, HU, preflop pot? And am I really giving up that much if I don't get to limp-reraise? Remember, I'll simply take down the blinds a large portion of the time that I raise in EP.

Am I missing something here?

A few additional considerations: I'm relatively new to NL ring games, so I don't mix up my play very much. Currently, I'm very predictable. But until the regulars get to know me better (and until I become more comfortable with this game), I don't mind being predictable. I'm still in the early learning phases of this game. As time goes on, I'm sure I'll have to mix things up by occasionally raising in all positions with a reasonable range of hands. But not right now.

So, all things considered, is my plan of limping in EP with AA/KK suicide, slightly -EV, slightly +EV, or the best thing I can do right now?

Please keep in mind that I play 400 NL LIVE at COMMERCE. Most games are generally passive preflop with one or two players who like to put in reasonable preflop raises about 15% of the time (so, about 1 in 4 hands are raised preflop). Most unraised pots are four, five, or six way. Most raised pots are uncontested, HU, or 3-way (occasionally four-way). The same players who like to raise preflop are the ones who are most likely to launch a bluff on a later street.

Any thoughts are appreciated.

Re: Limp-Reraise with AA/KK in EP
 

no way, at a passive table, im definitely going to be the one to put in the raise pf. figure out who is a calling station, who is more willing to play back at you, and who calls/raises with only strong hands.

if the pot is only being raised 25% of hands, im definitely raising rather than going for the lrr. 4, 5, 6-way pots? ugh, id much rather concentrate on reading/evaluating one guy's bets, especially live.

see who calls your bet, and adjust accordingly. loose-passive? value bet all the way. tricky aggro? perhaps bet flop, check turn. value bet river. look at the board. play some poker.

Re: Limp-Reraise with AA/KK in EP
 

You have put a lot of thought into this. I understand where you are coming from, but you need to reopen you're line of thought here. From the overall "sound" of this you are playing scared or near enough to it that the end result is the same.

Here is a quick hand from last weekend playing 5-150. I am UTG with AA and raise to 25, UTG+2 a pretty solid and thinking player, but tends to be way to ABC calls and we go heads up to a J high drawless flop. I lead for a little less than the pot sized bet and he RR max. Took me a minute or two, but I folded and he showed me the top set.

I think most players in that game would have been jamming the pot there, many of the posters here would have been too. Hell normally I would be too. But I played the player. I had enough table time with him to know how he played his sets and what his likely range was cold calling an UTG PFR. I have played enough lives hands period that I knew a pair of any rank was no good here and I got away from the hand cheaply, a hand that likely would have stacked most players in that game.

When I get to a table I play pretty cool, ABC until I get a feel for the game, the action and the people. Once I am comfortable and confident, I am raising anything from my EP.

I think the bottom line is you need to be more flexable and play more period. The more hands you play and I mean really play, thinking it all the way thru, even if you are not in the hand, the better off you will be. Start watching live at the bike too. It really is a good tool to see how people are playing live. And since they normally cast at least one 3/5 300-500 NL game a week, that is right up your alley.

Re: Limp-Reraise with AA/KK in EP
 

Thanks to both of you for the comments. I'll definitely check out Live at the Bike.

Okay, so now that I'm willing to raise with AA/KK in EP, shouldn't I add some other hands, too? If not, they'll always know where I am. So, I presume I should occasionally raise with AK/AQ? Since there are 32 ways to make AK/AQ and 12 ways to make AA/KK, I should be able to raise AK/AQ about 1/3 of the time to create the needed deception. Is it worth it to raise a hand like JTs or a small pocket pair about 10% of the time, or will this not help with deception and/or just get me into trouble? I could see how the small pocket pairs could show huge value but medium suited connectors might not.

Re: Limp-Reraise with AA/KK in EP
 

dude - that 400 game is soft. i understand that this is new to you, so you are being cautious, but you need to be raising qq, jj, tt and ak utg for sure - maybe 99 some - you are giving away too much currently. then, naturally, you need to add some connectors and such a smallish percentage of the time. there are enough donks calling utg raises with hands like QJo in those games that your earn will go up significantly by simply expanding your range.

Re: Limp-Reraise with AA/KK in EP
 

Blending your early position raises and limps well matters once you play against the same opponents often (and they are observant).

For example, you usually want to play small pairs in this game up front for a limp (in games where there isn't too much raising, and keep in mind limp folding after a big raise is OK). If you mix in some limp reraises with big hands you protect your limps with these hands somewhat.

BUT...if you try the limp reraise move with aces or kings AND there is no raise behind you AND you end up with several opponents you don't want to easily lose your entire stack (if it is big) with an overpair. If big money is going in postflop with a drawless board, you are usually behind unless you have excellent reads.

Also raise more with the hands laPoker17 mentions, usually raise with the two biggest pairs but mix in some limp reraises. You may want to limp reraise with AKs also, depending on stack size.

~ Rick

Re: Limp-Reraise with AA/KK in EP
 

Regarding small pairs, Ciaffone and Reuben recommend folding 55-22 unless you're on the button in an unraised pot. Basically, they're looking to avoid the unlikely but expensive set-over-set scenario. But C&R are writing about much bigger (and presumably harder) games than the 400 NL at Commerce. So...I should still be able to show a good profit by limping with any pocket pair in EP (and using the 5/10 rule to decide whether to call a raise)?

Re: Limp-Reraise with AA/KK in EP
 

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So...I should still be able to show a good profit by limping with any pocket pair in EP (and using the 5/10 rule to decide whether to call a raise)?

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Perhaps with the tiniest pairs you may want to be a bit more careful in situations where your extremely deep stack is exposed to a very good player with another extremely deep stack, but otherwise you want to play them if the preflop price relative to other stacks is right.

~ Rick

Re: Limp-Reraise with AA/KK in EP
 

Okay, thanks, Rick. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Pocket deuces, here I come!

Re: Limp-Reraise with AA/KK in EP
 

people need to be less afraid of limp reraise gone wrong getting limped around. its not that bad.

its much better than raise to 5xbb, get called behind me 5 or 6 ways.

Re: Limp-Reraise with AA/KK in EP
 

I agree.

Re: Limp-Reraise with AA/KK in EP
 

I'm saying this as a thoughtful recommendation (hopefully it comes off that way). I'd ask yourself what are you so scared of? This is purely psycholgical at this point. Everyone knows scared money = dead money. Is there some aspect of your game you're not confident in? Work on it. Play smaller stakes. I mean, if you're enjoying how you're playing, then go with it, have fun, but from your post it doesn't sound like you're having fun. You sound overly timid and scared.

Re: Limp-Reraise with AA/KK in EP
 

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Here is a quick hand from last weekend playing 5-150.

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What is 5-150? Is this some sort of structure where the betting is capped or is this a misprint? What I'm curious about is the blinds, max or min buy in and so on.

~ Rick

Re: Limp-Reraise with AA/KK in EP
 

spread limit

Re: Limp-Reraise with AA/KK in EP
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm saying this as a thoughtful recommendation (hopefully it comes off that way). I'd ask yourself what are you so scared of? This is purely psycholgical at this point. Everyone knows scared money = dead money. Is there some aspect of your game you're not confident in? Work on it. Play smaller stakes. I mean, if you're enjoying how you're playing, then go with it, have fun, but from your post it doesn't sound like you're having fun. You sound overly timid and scared.

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I'm scared of putting myself into -EV situations because I've forced my opponents to play more or less correctly against me. I would rather wait patiently for a chance to get my money in as a big favorite instead of when I don't know where I'm at in the hand.

Re: Limp-Reraise with AA/KK in EP
 

[ QUOTE ]
Okay, so now that I'm willing to raise with AA/KK in EP, shouldn't I add some other hands, too? If not, they'll always know where I am. So, I presume I should occasionally raise with AK/AQ? Since there are 32 ways to make AK/AQ and 12 ways to make AA/KK, I should be able to raise AK/AQ about 1/3 of the time to create the needed deception. Is it worth it to raise a hand like JTs or a small pocket pair about 10% of the time, or will this not help with deception and/or just get me into trouble? I could see how the small pocket pairs could show huge value but medium suited connectors might not.

[/ QUOTE ]

Once your opponents are starting to get a line on your tight play I'd raise the small to medium pocket pairs a fair amount (let's say 20% of the time) when your stack is deep (as are the stacks of your opponents). This protects your AK/AQ and overpair raises when the flop comes middle cards. You need to be able to bet the flop on quite a few of your misses, but here reading opponents is important.

Raising with decent suited connectors is OK too, but you will rarely hit the flop as hard as you will with a pair - here you want to have a decent chance of taking down the pot on your misses or flopped draws with a bet.

~ Rick

Re: Limp-Reraise with AA/KK in EP
 

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people need to be less afraid of limp reraise gone wrong getting limped around. its not that bad.

its much better than raise to 5xbb, get called behind me 5 or 6 ways.

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Not sure I understand you. If your stack is let's say $700 in this game (sort of typical) and your limp reraise fails (the pot is six way for about $50) you need to be really careful postflop when all you have is an overpair. When you get postflop action it's often going to be action you don't like.

But let's say with $700 you either raise to $30 or $40 or limp reraise. If your raise gets called in five or six spots you aren't getting away from too many flops, the pot is too big (about $250) relative to your replaceable stack (in the Commerce game you can buy a max of $600 after going to the felt).

A limp reraise usually narrows the field more, but if you didn't push everything with the limp reraise you are usually pushing on the flop with your remaining chips.

Am I missing something?

~ Rick

Re: Limp-Reraise with AA/KK in EP
 

[ QUOTE ]
Not sure I understand you. If your stack is let's say $700 in this game (sort of typical) and your limp reraise fails (the pot is six way for about $50) you need to be really careful postflop when all you have is an overpair. When you get postflop action it's often going to be action you don't like.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fold.

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But let's say with $700 you either raise to $30 or $40 or limp reraise. If your raise gets called in five or six spots you aren't getting away from too many flops, the pot is too big (about $250) relative to your replaceable stack (in the Commerce game you can buy a max of $600 after going to the felt).

[/ QUOTE ]

If you limp in and get outflopped you lose $10, or maybe $60 if you bet and fold to a raise. By raising preflop and refusing to let go of your hand, you lose $700 when you get outflopped.

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A limp reraise usually narrows the field more, but if you didn't push everything with the limp reraise you are usually pushing on the flop with your remaining chips.

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If you limp-reraise you are generally going to be putting in 20-30% of your stack preflop. No hand is correct to call you even if they get the rest of your stack 100% of the time that they outflop you. Your opponents will either correctly fold and let you take down a couple hundred dollars of dead money with no risk, or they will incorrectly chase without proper odds. You win either way.

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Am I missing something?

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Yes.

Re: Limp-Reraise with AA/KK in EP
 

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spread limit

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Wow, that's some spread (I assume the BB is $5).

We don't see much spread limit here in LA. My only experience with it was in a 2-10 spread in Las Vegas around 1985.

It would seem that the spread of this magnitude serves as NL with a capped bet as opposed to a capped buy-in.

~ Rick

Re: Limp-Reraise with AA/KK in EP
 

I just skimmed your post as well as soah's reply. While everyhing he says has merit I would like to offer an alternate persepctive.

I have been playing for 2-3 years, first limit then no limit. Until recently I played very tight. Not quite as tight as you (I routinely raised AK in ep) but probably very close to your level of tightness. I basiclly played all pairs and AK from all postions (unless the table was very agressive I would not play small pocktes from ep if I thought I would routinely face a raise and reraise by the time it got back to me). I played AXs and occasionally sc's from lp in limped pots. I limped AQ and AJ from all postions and folded them to a raise. VERY TIGHT. I have recently opened up my game considerably. The benefits of playing very tight are that you face few difficult decisions. The drawback is you don't maximize profits and don't learn to 'play poker'.

So my basic message is that you need to redefine the question. The question is how can you increase your profits playing no limit. limp reraising AA KK is but one of serveral ways that you should change your game to accomplish this.

Ideally you should be growing into a player who makes it very difficult for opponents to put you on a hand, while at the same time manipulating your opponents into revealing the strength of their hands, and narrowing their holdings.

I agree with soah's assessment that you are playing scared, at least that was true of me. I however think it is OK to step out of that mold gradually if that is your preferred method of approaching the improvment of your game.

Feel free to pm me with quesitions if you want.

Re: Limp-Reraise with AA/KK in EP
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Not sure I understand you. If your stack is let's say $700 in this game (sort of typical) and your limp reraise fails (the pot is six way for about $50) you need to be really careful postflop when all you have is an overpair. When you get postflop action it's often going to be action you don't like.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fold.

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IOW you might bet the flop (except atrocious flops such as JT9 two-tone) and get away from substantial action.



[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But let's say with $700 you either raise to $30 or $40 or limp reraise. If your raise gets called in five or six spots you aren't getting away from too many flops, the pot is too big (about $250) relative to your replaceable stack (in the Commerce game you can buy a max of $600 after going to the felt).

[/ QUOTE ]

If you limp in and get outflopped you lose $10, or maybe $60 if you bet and fold to a raise. By raising preflop and refusing to let go of your hand, you lose $700 when you get outflopped.

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But how often are you going to be outflopped and drawing nearly dead (to a set) when the pot is this big (after a raise) relative to your stack? Problem of course is any reasonable sized post flop bet tends to get you pot stuck.


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A limp reraise usually narrows the field more, but if you didn't push everything with the limp reraise you are usually pushing on the flop with your remaining chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you limp-reraise you are generally going to be putting in 20-30% of your stack preflop. No hand is correct to call you even if they get the rest of your stack 100% of the time that they outflop you. Your opponents will either correctly fold and let you take down a couple hundred dollars of dead money with no risk, or they will incorrectly chase without proper odds. You win either way.

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Great point with these parameters. I need to limp-reraise a bit more, but make sure I get away from the failed attempts (since the pot is small).


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Am I missing something?

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Yes.

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Actually I know I'm missing something so it was a dumb question. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Thanks for your input.

~ Rick

Re: Limp-Reraise with AA/KK in EP
 

[ QUOTE ]
But how often are you going to be outflopped and drawing nearly dead (to a set) when the pot is this big (after a raise) relative to your stack? Problem of course is any reasonable sized post flop bet tends to get you pot stuck.

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This is indeed the crucial variable. And since I've never been to LA, I can't offer any estimate of how often players there will lose their stack with top pair or worse against an EP raiser. I'm not going to attempt to argue that raising AA is -EV or anything (with decent postflop skills and playing against average opponents); the debate is simply whether raising is more +EV than limping. There are a lot of variables that will impact the EV of both lines and attempting to address them all here would be futile.

One other thing... I would rather play against an opponent who will only continue past the flop if they can beat an overpair... if my opponent could have a set, two pair, or top pair, then essentially they are going to be bluffing me a certain percentage of the time which is likely to be somewhat close to the optimal bluffing frequency. Sometimes they may double me up with top pair, but they will get it all back when I am forced to pay off their set the next time.

AA wins against 4 random hands 56% of the time... once again this is leaving out a lot of variables (like the fact that on the flop you would still be ahead much more than 56% of the time) but it's still a good reminder that one pair doesn't hold up well in family pots. If you put your stack in postflop against multiple opponents with AA you are just gambling that this is one of the times that it holds up. Depending on how loose your opponents play it might be a good gamble, or it might be a bad gamble... but it's just a spot that I'd like to avoid.

Re: Limp-Reraise with AA/KK in EP
 

Nice response - well put.

Re: Limp-Reraise with AA/KK in EP
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ideally you should be growing into a player who makes it very difficult for opponents to put you on a hand

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I agree with your post, but I would rather play a weaker hand like a strong hand to add deception than the other way around.

I am not saying don't limp with AA/KK, just that the statement above should probably have further clarification for others.

Re: Limp-Reraise with AA/KK in EP
 

[ QUOTE ]
One other thing... I would rather play against an opponent who will only continue past the flop if they can beat an overpair... if my opponent could have a set, two pair, or top pair, then essentially they are going to be bluffing me a certain percentage of the time which is likely to be somewhat close to the optimal bluffing frequency. Sometimes they may double me up with top pair, but they will get it all back when I am forced to pay off their set the next time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, great observation. I seem to have several problems when playing the overpair or playing against the overpair.

When playing the big overpair fairly deep I get pot-stuck too easily and pay off the opponent holding top two or a set far too often in large part because of the problems you outline above. So I definitely need to be limp-reraising more to avoid this dilemma as I'm not a superior reader.

When playing against the overpair I'm too often showing top two or a set since I won't call early raises with inferior holdings and tend not to raise on the come with all but the biggest draws against a strong EP raiser. Experienced opponents learn not to pay me off with overpairs or TPTK.

The end result is I get the worst of both worlds.


[ QUOTE ]
AA wins against 4 random hands 56% of the time... once again this is leaving out a lot of variables (like the fact that on the flop you would still be ahead much more than 56% of the time) but it's still a good reminder that one pair doesn't hold up well in family pots. If you put your stack in postflop against multiple opponents with AA you are just gambling that this is one of the times that it holds up. Depending on how loose your opponents play it might be a good gamble, or it might be a bad gamble... but it's just a spot that I'd like to avoid.

[/ QUOTE ]

soah, you have made my ever increasing list of poster's I need to read more. It's not like the old days when I could count the top posters on my fingers and toes.

~ Rick

Re: Limp-Reraise with AA/KK in EP
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ideally you should be growing into a player who makes it very difficult for opponents to put you on a hand

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I agree with your post, but I would rather play a weaker hand like a strong hand to add deception than the other way around.

I am not saying don't limp with AA/KK, just that the statement above should probably have further clarification for others.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, thank you.

Re: Limp-Reraise with AA/KK in EP
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
spread limit

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Wow, that's some spread (I assume the BB is $5).

We don't see much spread limit here in LA. My only experience with it was in a 2-10 spread in Las Vegas around 1985.

It would seem that the spread of this magnitude serves as NL with a capped bet as opposed to a capped buy-in.

~ Rick

[/ QUOTE ]

You got it. This is in AZ where there is no NL.

Re: Limp-Reraise with AA/KK in EP
 

I see wherre a lot of people are going with this, but I like your plan and sometimes utilize it. If you were going to institute your plan, I'd never raise preflop from the first 3 positions. I'd start off limp reraising preflop with AA and KK and limpreraising BIG with QQ if you think you are up against a moron. I doubt people will pay attention enough to figure out your plan, but you avoid a ton of sticky spots.

If you really think people catch on to your plan, I'd start limp reraising preflop with suited connectors too.

Re: Limp-Reraise with AA/KK in EP
 

This thread shows one of the possible difficulties of raising only 3-4x the BB with AA/KK in EP.

So, what's a better default play (assuming a passive-to-typical game with a mix of short stacks, medium stacks, and big stacks -- no exceptional players):

1) Raise to 6-8x the BB in EP, or
2) Go for the Limp-Reraise.

Right now, I feel that 2) is better than 1) for a few reasons:

a) If you're raising big in EP with monsters, you'll occasionally have to make similar sized raises with AK, QQ-77 (maybe all the way down to deuces), and some suited connectors. At the Commerce 400, where the blinds are so big and the players so bad, I really don't think this looks like a good plan. If I only raise with AA/KK, I'll eventually never get anyone to play. And if I add in the deception hands, I'll probably end up playing more hands OOP for big money than I should.

b) Many of the players are often shortstacked relative to a raise this size. Even if a player has $600 in chips to start a hand, a raise to to $70 makes the pot $150. I'm forced into two-street (or sometimes three-street) poker. If that's the case, the limp-reraise seems to be a better move. Both plays force a two-street hand, but the limp-reraise has the potential to take down a reasonable pot preflop or get all (or enough so that the flop is an easy push) the chips in preflop.