Free Showdown
 

Aside from sucking at life, I suck applying the free showdown play. However, I think I got it right here.

EP limper is semi-loose and semi-aggressive. Been seen betting middle pair and so forth.

BB is weak/tight.

EP limps, I'm +2 and over limp with A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

folded to BB who checks.

Flop: A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

EP bets, I call, BB folds

Turn is 5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

EP bets, I raise

Re: Free Showdown
 

Making this play against this opponent, you want two things to be true:

1) He will call your raise with a worse hand.
2) He will not 3-bet your raise with a worse hand.

It's also nice if a third condition applies:

3) He will not stop & go the river with a better hand.

If this is me, I would've raised the flop to discourage BB from coming along with a gutshot or something, bet the turn if EP just called my flop raise, and then value bet the river, expecting him to pay off with KQ or JT or whatever he has.

Re: Free Showdown
 

[ QUOTE ]
I suck applying the free showdown play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Me too [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]. Do you assume your behind 100% of the time he 3-bets and do not have a good enough draw to continue? If ahead do you really want him to fold or quit betting? I have a hard time ever thinking the free showdown play is something i would want to do with a pair of aces so i will be interested to read the other responses to this thread.

Re: Free Showdown
 

meh, if I just want two more bets going in I prefer to just call down. OTOH, if I raise this turn it is with the intention of betting the river as well.

Re: Free Showdown
 

The turn raise is good. Depending on the player and the river card, I'd decline the free showdown on non broadway rivers.

-McGee

Re: Free Showdown
 

Do you think it might be beneficial to make this play on the flop? If you're 3 bet you can fold and save yourself some bets. You also might be able to drive out a better A (say A8). If it works successfully you save yourself 1/2 a BB in the end.

Re: Free Showdown
 

Harv:

Calling this flop is standard imo. BB calls with a gutshot, good. He calls with a Q, whatever, fine.

More interested the turn...

Re: Free Showdown
 

Bah.

I don't like the turn raise.

He's not folding much of anything, and most things I don't even want to fold. If that's the case, I need to bet the river again, and 3 big bets seems like spewage with this marginal hand.

Call down, bet if checked to.

Re: Free Showdown
 

Yes, he's not getting correct pot odds to call 1 bet with a gutshot. So yes, you'll make money when the BB overcalls you. But you'll make more money when he calls 2 with a gutshot or 5-outer, you'll make more money when he lays down a hand like QJ or JT (which he would've been correct to overcall with), and you'll win the pot more often when he folds any live draw regardless. Assuming of course that you're good to begin with.

I know your question revolves more around the turn raise, but I really don't like the flop call here.

The turn raise after calling the flop? Meh...he seems aggressive enough to fire again on the river, or at least check/call with a worse hand if you don't raise, but he also seems bad enough to call your raise with a worse hand and then check/call the river UI. The question is whether or not you're comfortable folding to a turn 3-bet, and if not (I wouldn't be given your description of this player), then I think a call/call line is better (betting if he checks to you on the river).

Re: Free Showdown
 

Harv:

JT still is a very, very close flop call. May very well still be -EV since he's OOP and certainly won't get much (if any) action if the straigth falls.

Re: Free Showdown
 

Q,

I too, suck at applying the free showdown raise, although I often bet the turn hoping to take a free showdown.

In either case, these are the things that I look for:
-a passive enough opponent to let me get away with it
-some showdown value (obvious)
-some fold equity (not strictly necessary, but it's nice)
-a decent chance of improving on the river (so I have the choice of going 2/3 bets when I improve and 1/2 bets when I don't)

Usually this means something like middle pair with some sort of draw.

In this hand, you have very little fold equity (he'll almost never lay down a better hand), if you are behind you only have 3 dubious outs to improve, and you you could easily get him to lay down a worse hand that he would have fired with again on the river.

Re: Free Showdown
 

how about this line?

raise the flop, bet the turn and check the river. wouldnt' that accomplish the same thing with .5 bb less?

Re: Free Showdown
 

[ QUOTE ]
He's not folding much of anything, and most things I don't even want to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds like a good reason to raise to me.

-McGee

Re: Free Showdown
 

From my belief, the free showdown raise is used when you have a mediocre hand that you're going to call down anyway and have fold equity. Then you might be able to cause an opponent to improperly fold his hand on the turn while expending the same 2 BBs to see the showdown, making the turn raise the superior play.

Another benefit is that next time you have a strong hand with position, your opponent may be obligated to call your turn raise with something mediocre fearing that you may be going for the free showdown.

I wouldn't consider this hand a free showdown play since villan isn't folding much of anything and you have a better than average hand. In this case I will probably bet the river depending on what comes. I like raising the flop and betting the turn.

Re: Free Showdown
 

You suck at free showdowns and I suck at retyping old posts.

Post 2


Post 1

Here are my thoughts. The one post doesn't read very well, but hopefully this makes sense.

So yeah I don't really like the raise in this spot unless you plan on betting the river UI. Just flat calling down works a lot better in this spot when none of the above are true.

Re: Free Showdown
 

Thx Shillx.

Re: Free Showdown
 

I don't really like this much. The fsd is much better when you pick up a draw to go along with your hand. If you hit, you can bet again on the river. If you miss, you can check.

Re: Free Showdown
 

Qtip,

personally, I use the free showdown in situations where a draw is a significant part of my opponent's range, so he's forced to call but can't really get too jiggy with me as far as 3 betting or stop and going. here, if he does have a worse draw like a gutshot, he may fold it to your raise when he may have bluffed the river, or he may take that same angle with a worse pair when he would have value bet. Having the chance to fold some better hands would help, but I don't see that here. all IMO of course.

EDIT: I would probably just call all the way

Re: Free Showdown
 

DMB:

I like calling all the way too.

However, what you're saying about the part where opponent has draw clashes with what another here has said about the play being about having folding equity. If you're opponenet can't fold, this doesn't apply.

Re: Free Showdown
 

Dude got a free flop from the BB and then checked the flop. The percentage of the time he has a legitimate piece of the board with a real hand like JT is pretty small.

Re: Free Showdown
 

No likey.

He's not folding a better hand.
You have limited outs when behind.
No guarantees he won't 3bet.

Re: Free Showdown
 

[ QUOTE ]
Aside from sucking at life

[/ QUOTE ]

are we running that badly? and oh yeah, call down.

Re: Free Showdown
 

I use it a lot in situations like DMB describes. Say you have something like 99 that you raise in LP. Flop is 5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. A loose/semi-aggressive EP opponent that you know will bet a J or draw bets into you on the flop. You just call and it's HU on the turn with a not-so-small pot. I'll raise a blank turn card a lot here and check the river through.

Re: Free Showdown
 

Chief and others:

I've not yet completely read through the post to which Shillx linked, so some of my answers may be there. Here are some of the thoughts I'm mulling over with the fsd play.

I don't think the play should be made when I have to call a 3 bet. Two different reasons I have to call a 3 bet:

1. The turn gave me more outs. I posted a hand like that a while back. I had JJ and raised for a free showdown before I realized that the turn gave me a gutshot. I got 3 bet and had to call. Putting 3 bets in on the turn is just sickening to me when I wasn't crazy about my hand to start with. Then the pot is so frickin big on the river, it's more enticing to call that as well.

2. The player is aggressive enough to 3 bet with a worse hand or draw or donk bet the river after missing or whatever.

Now, in general, I think the fact that I believe this player is betting a draw or a worse hand on the turn seems to make #2 much more likely.

Also, on folding equity, a couple things:

It would seem that folding equity should play a decent role in this play. I just finished a rereading of top, and page 114 is coming to mind.

One thing it seems I should consider more is pot size. If the pot is large, my opponent is more apt to call or make another move for the pot. I certainly don't want to increase the chances of getting pushed out. However, if the pot is too small, it may not warrant me pushing for it to begin with.

Also, it's interesting that if my opponent is betting on the come with a very strong draw, he's calling my raise anyway. Now, it's nice to charge him the max for his draw, but at the same time, I have no folding equity, he may be betting with the best hand anyway, and the river may complete some draws which will now provide him with a good bluffing opportunity.

I need to go finish reading through Shillx's links, but I just wanted to get my thoughts out here to be corrected/improved or whatever.

Re: Free Showdown
 

This line doesn't make any sense in the hand you describe. In order for a raise to be correct he must...

a) Fold the draw that he is betting.
b) Fold something like A6 + the pot must be bigger then about 8 BB.
c) Fold Jx.
d) Sometimes check/fold the river with a worse hand when he misses.

The only one that could be true here is (d). In general, it is bad to assume that people will give up on the river when they miss (even more so for LAGs). A turn raise/river check from 99 gets about .32 BB of value from a flush draw + 2 overcards. If the villian will always bet the river though, calling the turn/river gets that same .32 BB of value. The reason why it is better to just call (when you plan on checking UI) is because you allow yourself to catch up on the river. It is also better in case he has only a gutshot or a hand like 77. You would rather him put bets in as a 10:1 or 20:1 dog then fold when the pot is still small.

Re: Free Showdown
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think the play should be made when I have to call a 3 bet. Two different reasons I have to call a 3 bet:

1. The turn gave me more outs. I posted a hand like that a while back. I had JJ and raised for a free showdown before I realized that the turn gave me a gutshot. I got 3 bet and had to call. Putting 3 bets in on the turn is just sickening to me when I wasn't crazy about my hand to start with. Then the pot is so frickin big on the river, it's more enticing to call that as well.

2. The player is aggressive enough to 3 bet with a worse hand or draw or donk bet the river after missing or whatever.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you are giving up too much if you never make the fsd play when you have to call a 3 bet. Obviously if 2 is likely, then we shouldn't be making this play to begin with - the whole point of the play is that the opponent is passive enough to call and check to us on the river.

As for 1, though, remember that one of the advantages of the play is that you give yourself the option of going another bet if you hit your draw, or checking down if you don't. If you get 3-bet on the turn, it only costs you 1 extra bet since you were going to call the river bet anyways (or else you wouldn't care about getting to showdown), but now you can safely fold. Plus, it only really costs you some fraction of a bet since sometimes your draw will come in (also if you get 3-bet, call, and make your draw, you are likely to get 1 or more bets in on the river, offsetting your costs even more). The true cost here is roughly P(villain will 3-bet) * P(your draw doesn't come in). Again, it really just comes down to how likely villain is to 3-bet - if its not that likely, than its not so important whether or not we have to call it.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, on folding equity, a couple things:

It would seem that folding equity should play a decent role in this play. I just finished a rereading of top, and page 114 is coming to mind.

One thing it seems I should consider more is pot size. If the pot is large, my opponent is more apt to call or make another move for the pot. I certainly don't want to increase the chances of getting pushed out. However, if the pot is too small, it may not warrant me pushing for it to begin with.

Also, it's interesting that if my opponent is betting on the come with a very strong draw, he's calling my raise anyway. Now, it's nice to charge him the max for his draw, but at the same time, I have no folding equity, he may be betting with the best hand anyway, and the river may complete some draws which will now provide him with a good bluffing opportunity.

[/ QUOTE ]

As I said in my early post, I don't think folding equity is necessary, it's just nice to have. It's nice to be able to make sure your opponent pays for his draw, while at the same time losing the same amount when you are behind (bonus points when he makes his draw and whiffs a river CR).

I agree with you about pot size - I think when the pot is huge you are probably better off calling down. You don't want to put yourself in a position where you have to fold, and your opponent is likely to get all nutty with all sorts of hands (and in particular will be much more likely to continue his bluff on the river when you miss, so you lose one advantage of the turn raise). When the pot is small, however, it's probably not worth calling down in the first place with a hand that you are unsure of, so the fsd play is probably not even a consideration at this point.

Re: Free Showdown
 

[ QUOTE ]
the whole point of the play is that the opponent is passive enough to call and check to us on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Passive enough to do this, yet aggressive enough to bet 2 streets into us with something we're beating...

Re: Free Showdown
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
the whole point of the play is that the opponent is passive enough to call and check to us on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Passive enough to do this, yet aggressive enough to bet 2 streets into us with something we're beating...

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep - i don't think this is uncommon at all. In an unraised pot with only a few players, lots of players will bet out the flop with middle pair or a decent draw (as they probably should) and many will follow up with a turn bet if no one raised the flop. The non-aggro ones, however, will usually shut down when they get raised on the turn.

You do have a point, though, in that the turn bet does make it less likely that villain is weak, because at least some of the time he'll go into check-call mode after the flop bet is called. This is why I find that most of my free showdown plays tend to be raise flop, bet turn, check river; or call flop, bet turn, check river. Raising the turn for a free sd is good play to have around, though, I think it just requires a more careful read than two lines that I listed above (hence why I don't use it enough).

Re: Free Showdown
 

If I have the best hand...and I do a lot of the time...I don't see why you think a raise is incorrect if he calls with a draw or something like A6. Just because an opponent calls correctly doesn't mean my raise isn't +EV. I'm not assuming a "semi-aggressive" opponent is always betting the river. They don't always bet. I have two outs so I'm not losing much really those times I get 3-bet and fold. That doesn't happen much anyway. Also, a loose opponent doesn't fold a gutshot to the turn raise. And even if he does, in that situation it's still better than me not raising and letting him see the river for no more bets than he's already put in. So while I agree with you're assessment that (d) is the only likely scenario of the four you gave, I completely disagree that (a) and (b) are necessary for my raise to be correct.

Re: Free Showdown
 

I'm with Harv. Raise this flop. Protect your hand and help define EP's hand. And if bb wants to call two cold with a gutshot, awesome for him.

I'm going for a free sd when I have something like mid pair and the dude is very likely to be on a draw instead of having the over pair.

Re: Free Showdown
 

SackUp:

Check out hepfap on pages 92-94, and then see if you still feel the same way about the flop play. Not saying you won't, just want to see if you think this is a misapplication of the concepts there.

Re: Free Showdown
 

Not sure of the "correct" play or even the free showdown play in general but I usually raise this flop. This will likely fold the other player and put the fear into the bettor. If 3bet on the flop I think I can get away from it. If not, I bet the turn and take down the pot or fold to the checkraise. If just called I take my free showdown or call a suspicious river bet.

I checked that section in HPFAP but I think the hands are different enough that they didnt help me out here.