bluffing with a set
 

this hand felt kinda weird, thought i'd post it and see what ppl think.

3-6 online, 6-handed. i limp utg with 66, one lp limper, sb folds, bb checks. lp and bb both have about 500, i cover.

($21 in pot) flop: 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

bb minbets, i raise to $36, lp coldcalls, bb calls.

($129 in pot) turn: 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

ugly card for me. bb checks, i check, lp bets $66, bb calls, i call.

($327 in pot) river: 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

bb checks, they each have about $400 left, i bet $300. good, bad, or ugly?

Re: bluffing with a set
 

Not good. The cold call at these stakes usually means spades, at the very least a 9.

Against one opponent the river bet is not so bad, against two, you are most likely getting called by a better hand, including any flush.

Since you normally play bigger live, I'm just curious. What's it like playing at these stakes online, do you automatically feel like you can kill these games, are you just trying to get your bearings, or are you actually challenged?

Re: bluffing with a set
 

[ QUOTE ]
Against one opponent the river bet is not so bad, against two, you are most likely getting called by a better hand

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: bluffing with a set
 

[ QUOTE ]
The cold call at these stakes usually means spades, at the very least a 9.

[/ QUOTE ]
i certainly didn't think my 3 sixes were the best hand; it was a bluff.

[ QUOTE ]
Against one opponent the river bet is not so bad, against two, you are most likely getting called by a better hand, including any flush.

[/ QUOTE ]
a flush definitely calls me, but i don't think either of them has a flush, at least not from the way the hand played out. clearly, i'm representing a flush, question is if my play looks like a flush draw, and how often they'll believe it does. a better hand does not always call me, i think i can force a 9 to fold.

i tried to put them on hands: lp's flop coldcall could have been a flush draw, but his turn bet made me revise that thought. how often does a flush draw bet there with a 4-straight on board? it looks more to me he has something like 98. bb also could've been drawing to spades, but his check on the river also indicated it was unlikely he made a flush. so, does a straight look me up enough here to make it -ev? i'm not sure.

[ QUOTE ]
Since you normally play bigger live, I'm just curious. What's it like playing at these stakes online, do you automatically feel like you can kill these games, are you just trying to get your bearings, or are you actually challenged?

[/ QUOTE ]
i've been trying to learn 6max and shorter games. live games are usually full ring, and when i play online 5-10 and 10-25 i still prefer full games too, reason being that the games are generally tougher at those levels compared to their b&m counterparts, and the pace is faster, so i'm not comfortable playing those stakes while learning shorthanded play. playing somewhat lower allows me to play more aggressively, as 6max requires, and i can afford to make more mistakes in the learning process. this hand may meet both of those criteria: aggressive, as well as a mistake? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: bluffing with a set
 

hey mike -

raise preflop. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: bluffing with a set
 

I dont like it. Even if you're not up against flush, you still have to get one of them to lay their straight most likely.

Re: bluffing with a set
 

hey mike,
I find that online I get paid off a lot in spots like this when I do have spades, as many ppl will assume they're splitting and think it's right to call. as such I'm not sure I like it vs. two opponents. if you are going to try it I think your bet amount is perfect though.

many ppl at 3/6 are just not thinking enough about what you might have to pull this off. in my experience most ppl are still thinking strictly in terms of hand strength.

the thing that clenches it for me is that I think BB could very well have spades despite his river check.

Re: bluffing with a set
 

hi turnip, yeah, i think running this against 2 players is probably a bad idea, i need both of them to fold a pretty high percentage of the time to make it profitable.

let me ask you something about 6max play; bobbo brought up to raise preflop, and i have been raising 66 even utg a good amount, maybe 50% of the time. 99 and up i'm raising 100%, but 88 and below i still limp occasionally, with the limp frequency increasing as the pair gets smaller, obviously. how often do you raise 88, 77, 66 utg? just trying to get a gauge on how much more ramping up of aggression i need.

Re: bluffing with a set
 

hi mike,
I don't think open limping is necessarily wrong, but I never do it at 6 max. I also almost never limp behind a single limper.

Re: bluffing with a set
 

[ QUOTE ]
hi mike,
I don't think open limping is necessarily wrong, but I never do it at 6 max. I also almost never limp behind a single limper.

[/ QUOTE ]

really? I overlimp often, but I wont open a pot with a limp. Sometimes there aresituations and hands worth isolating theplayer, but oftentimes you just want a multiway pot imo..

Re: bluffing with a set
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
hi mike,
I don't think open limping is necessarily wrong, but I never do it at 6 max. I also almost never limp behind a single limper.

[/ QUOTE ]

really? I overlimp often, but I wont open a pot with a limp. Sometimes there aresituations and hands worth isolating theplayer, but oftentimes you just want a multiway pot imo..

[/ QUOTE ]

yea my play recently has been including a lot more overlimping than i used to, now that my post-flop play is a little better, especially w/deeper stacks

Re: bluffing with a set
 

I overlimp on the button alot but not really from any other position

Re: bluffing with a set
 

Not trying to be rude, but I'm scratching my head trying to figure out how you see this as good. It's a limped pot against two opponents on a draw heavy board that connected multiple ways. Maybe against one opponent.... maybe...

Re: bluffing with a set
 

[ QUOTE ]
Not trying to be rude, but I'm scratching my head trying to figure out how you see this as good. It's a limped pot against two opponents on a draw heavy board that connected multiple ways. Maybe against one opponent.... maybe...

[/ QUOTE ]
several ppl have mentioned it's bad cuz i'm against two players, and i acknowledged that it might be harder to get 2 folds rather than just 1. however, the flip side of it is that by betting into two players, it must seem to them very unlikely that i'm bluffing? against just one player i think a 9 might even snap me off more often because my play looks more suspicious now. anyway, i never claimed this was good.

Re: bluffing with a set
 

"3-6 online"
i like it.

Re: bluffing with a set
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Not trying to be rude, but I'm scratching my head trying to figure out how you see this as good. It's a limped pot against two opponents on a draw heavy board that connected multiple ways. Maybe against one opponent.... maybe...

[/ QUOTE ]
several ppl have mentioned it's bad cuz i'm against two players, and i acknowledged that it might be harder to get 2 folds rather than just 1. however, the flip side of it is that by betting into two players, it must seem to them very unlikely that i'm bluffing? against just one player i think a 9 might even snap me off more often because my play looks more suspicious now. anyway, i never claimed this was good.

[/ QUOTE ]

I completely agree that it's unlikely one of them has a flush (obviously), BUT against most opponents online I don't like this. Perhaps with a better read against 2 opponents it's possible, but I'd just wait for a better spot on this board. The effort is good though. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: bluffing with a set
 

I'd just check. A straight will call, but not bet. A higher set might call but not bet. A low flush will call but might not bet fearing a higher flush. A big flush will go all-in over the top of your bet and you'll probably have to call with whatever you have left just on principle ($100 more in a huge pot).

I think you just need to check it down and hope nobody has a 4, a 9, a higher set, or 2-spades.

I think the best line on the river is to check it down.

Re: bluffing with a set
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think open limping is necessarily wrong, but I never do it at 6 max. I also almost never limp behind a single limper.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't get why you'd raise or fold 66/55/44/33/22 UTG instead of open limping, calling an LP raise, and playing for a set. A hand like AK or AQ (who flop a pair) or TT will often call behind you, call your continuation bet, and generally make life hard for you when you don't flop a set, have a low pair, and you end up having to to fire 2 barrels or more trying to push guys in LP off a hand.

Why is this +EV at 6-max?

Re: bluffing with a set
 

you hitting a set and the other guy hitting something he's willing to put a lot of money in the pot with is a very rare occurence in shorthanded poker.

no one with AK/AQ whatever is making life hard for us when an ace flops, as I'm not firing indiscriminate multi street bluffs out of position. they win a small pot when they're ahead and lose a big one when they're behind if they decide to see a showdown.

the one thing that really hurts you raising small pairs up front is when your opponents play well enough to blow you off your set draw pf by rerasing pot. most opponents in 3/6 and below shorthanded games do not.

Re: bluffing with a set
 

He played his hand like a flush draw. How sure are you that a straight even made it? I might just check behind and see what's up. Making a straight fold could be hard, making something worse fold would suck, and making a flush fold isn't happening.

Re: bluffing with a set
 

My god post results more often people.

Re: bluffing with a set
 

I just check here, against only one opponent that had checked and no-one behind i might bet 3/4 pot or so.