Spider senses are tingling
 

Bodog 1/2 full ring

UTG+1, not the best of players but doesn't get too out of line, 200$ stack, raises to 6

I call in MP with 66

SB (70$) calls

Pot(20)
Flop: Jh Kc 6h

SB leads for 9
UTG+1 calls
I raise to 35
SB calls
UTG+1 minraises

RUH ROH~!

Re: Spider senses are tingling
 

hmmmm whenever i see this its almost always a stupid set, my brain says fold but my penis says push

Re: Spider senses are tingling
 

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hmmmm whenever i see this its almost always a stupid set

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True, but you can't rule out villain holding AA.

Without the K on the flop I would lean towards fold.

With more info on villain I could give a better answer. How does villain perceive hero? Is hero aggressive with top pair in this spot?

Re: Spider senses are tingling
 

Pretty sure villain has no read on me.

Re: Spider senses are tingling
 

You've gotta be way deeper and live to consider folding a set at these stakes.

As is, I call and push the turn.

Re: Spider senses are tingling
 

do not ever fold a set until you are plalying at some serious stakes. Set over set is 50:1.

Re: Spider senses are tingling
 

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As is, I call and push the turn.

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If you are going to push the turn anyway, then do it now on the flop. (BTW, that's what I would do here.)

Re: Spider senses are tingling
 

Does this really look like AK/AA to you guys?

Re: Spider senses are tingling
 

That's an option too and one I use alot, but sometimes I feel that 3-betting the OOP min-raise gives them a chance to get away from AK, which I don't think he is doing once we call and he bets the turn.

Re: Spider senses are tingling
 

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I feel that 3-betting the OOP min-raise gives them a chance to get away from AK

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Villain's bet was the third, and considering what he has left, you will see a fold almost never.

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Does this really look like AK/AA to you guys?

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It depends on your read of villain. You said he doesn't get too out of line and this is full ring, so I lean towards AA, but not AK.

This is one of those spots where at this limit, it would be almost impossible to fold. If he's uber tight, he could have AA, if he's a LAG, he could have AK or worse.

Your hand is good here more often than not.

Re: Spider senses are tingling
 

You got oversetted.

Re: Spider senses are tingling
 

Fold it like you should when you have a set of Ks HU

Re: Spider senses are tingling
 

He has a set or KJ; if KJ is impossible from this guy, you can get away and hope SB looks him up with QT.

Re: Spider senses are tingling
 

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Does this really look like AK/AA to you guys?

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no

Re: Spider senses are tingling
 

I fold. I think UTG+1 called the first raise to build the pot, then put the mini raise in there to continue to build, but not scare you off. He probably knows he has SB all in.

Bodog 1/2, a 3BB preflop raise is like limping in to most players. I think you can put the SB on AK, KQ or KJ and UTG on KK or JJ. I just don't see AA here a good enough % to make this call profitable.

Re: Spider senses are tingling
 

is it just me or this the best possible flop for you? If u don't get it all in here then fold 66 pf.

Re: Spider senses are tingling
 

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If u don't get it all in here then fold 66 pf.

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Worst oft-given advice ever.

Re: Spider senses are tingling
 

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If u don't get it all in here then fold 66 pf.

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duhhhhhh this is terrible reasoning

villain gave us a lot more info post-flop then pre-flop to consider folding 66 on this flop

Re: Spider senses are tingling
 

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He has a set or KJ; if KJ is impossible from this guy, you can get away and hope SB looks him up with QT.

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How is this not the obvious answer?

Garland taught me to keep track of minraises, both pre- and postflop for each player, so you'll have a better idea of what this means.

Re: Spider senses are tingling
 

any advice that contains always/never is bad advice.
there are many situations were folding a set is correct- 4 cards of the same suit on the board, 4 straight cards on the board...

Re: Spider senses are tingling
 

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If u don't get it all in here then fold 66 pf.

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duhhhhhh this is terrible reasoning

villain gave us a lot more info post-flop then pre-flop to consider folding 66 on this flop

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so u guys would fold this here?...I see all kinds of stuff besides KK+JJ in this situation.

Re: Spider senses are tingling
 

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so u guys would fold this here?...I see all kinds of stuff besides KK+JJ in this situation.

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Exactly, you see all kinds of stuff other than KK/JJ at this level.

Assume villain minraised another 35, SB is pot committed for his last 20, so there is 163 in the pot with 150 left. You are getting a little better than 2-1 with a push.

It would be hard to fold getting 2-1 at this limit with the villain's description of: "not the best of players".

You will occasionally see a set here, but not often enough to justify the fold. If this was a higher limit against a passive nit who never gets out of line, then fold, but not here.

Re: Spider senses are tingling
 

I never said I'd fold, but I might. It (obviously) comes down to a read; in the moment, I might get a strong feeling about what I should do. I usually go with those feelings. If I don't get one, I stick it in and river quads if necessary.

Re: Spider senses are tingling
 

Oh I definatly had a VERY strong feeling. But like Yvesaint, my penis said push. I called out villain's hole cards in chat before pushing, and he flipped them up to my amusement. UTG+1 = KK, SB = JJ for Set over Set over Set action. I really couldnt imagine uTG+1 playing AA or AK like this. I felt he would raise SB's weak lead with either of those.

Villain's line shows just about as much strength possible, and its usually not 1-pair here EVER from my experience, unless villain is a complete donkey, and like I said, this villain had not been getting out of line much. If only I were good enough to go with my read. I'll never be like Barry [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: Spider senses are tingling
 

yea, ive only had 2 hands against me to base this from, but from what ive seen in pots i havent been involved in, a cold-call of any sort of bet followed by a min-raise on the same street is almost always a set.

Re: Spider senses are tingling
 

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If u don't get it all in here then fold 66 pf.

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Worst oft-given advice ever.

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Re: Spider senses are tingling
 

I just can't agree with this. Even on-line, you should be able to read certain players.

Recent hand where I kicked myself for not listening to myself (as opposed to the people who say never fold a set):

I'm on the button with pocket 8s. A min raise in EP, a ROCK in midposition pushes it up to 8bb. Since we're both full stacked I call. The minraiser calls. Flop comes 8 J Q. Minraiser makes a wussy lead... ROCK checks (which I remember thinking didn't seem what I would expect considering his raise)... I put in a real raise, the minraiser calls it, and the ROCK now checkraises. I told myself, "I knew it... if he had an overpair he wouldn't play it this way." I KNEW he had a higher set and I knew he expected me to call.

Then you hear that oft repeated 2+2 voice.... "never fold a set"... and I grudgingly went against my every instinct AND what I thought was very obvious info being given out.... So I push, minraiser folds and the ROCK insta-calls. Of course he had the top set.

My point... with a rock; considering the raise pf, and the checkraise on the flop (after a bet and a raise)... this was ONLY a set.

For absolute beginners... I would say the 'never fold a set' advice (unless you have a set of 10s on a board of 10JQsuited...) is fine. But for those trying to develop their game, its bad.

The fact of the matter is a lot of people play sets in very predictable recognizeable manners. And a lot of people are very predictable. After playing for awhile, if you can't put certain players definitely on sets once in awhile, then you're not developing proper hand reading skills.

Re: Spider senses are tingling
 

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After playing for awhile, if you can't put certain players definitely on sets once in awhile, then you're not developing proper hand reading skills.

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Agreed, but with hero getting better than 2-1, do you really think at 200NL that it will be set over set at least 2 out of every 3 times?

If it was even money or villain was a nit, it would be an easy fold, the odds are the only reason I would call once hero finds himself in that spot.

Re: Spider senses are tingling
 

Hmm, another hand I just witnessed on Bodog, QJ7 board, QQ vs JJ vs 77, I think this is happening slightly more often than odds would dictate [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

Re: Spider senses are tingling
 

OMG ONLINE POKER IS RIGGED.

I lose my ass on this hand too, I suck at folding sets.

Re: Spider senses are tingling
 

I was not in the hand so I can't say for certain. But there are times when I can say better then 9 times out of 10 that a certain person has a set.

There are a lot of good but minimally tricky players who can be read like a book.

For instance... LAGS who lead and overbet all the time with marginal hands... suddenly, out of character for him... checks only to checkraise or go nuts; totally out of character for him and means Monster hand.

The person who calls a raise pf, smoothcalls a flop bet and then checkraises the turn on a drawless board; almost always a set.

Stuff like that... personally, I think your read can be enough to say, "I'm getting 3 to 1 on this call" and confidently fold.

Mind you... there are a lot of morons who you should NEVER fold a set to. I don't think that's what this hand is about.