lines bad players take that good players misinterpret
 

One of the most difficult (and rewarding) things a poker player can do is to really get inside the mindset of his opponents. Since we seek out bad opposition like good little poker players, I'd like to take a semi-analytical look at some plays that bad players make that look like good plays, but are in fact poorly conceived.

In a general sense, bad players differ from good players by valuing the wrong things. These things (in no specific order) consist of, but are not limited to

winning the hand that they are currently playing.
-bad players want to win every hand that they are involved in, and may bluff carelessly if shown weakness.

showing down
-bad players don't like to be the last one to fold. Really bad players will call you down with seven high and no draw just to see your cards.

folding out worse hands
-bad players would rather win by making a bet and having everyone fold to them. this includes the times that others are drawing dead. It just feels good to flex a little and have everyone run in fear.

hitting a draw
bad players love to hit that big flush or hidden straight, and can be willing to take poor odds and chase just to get the chance to show down the winner and go nuts on the river.

As good players, we value all of these things as well. Just not to the great extent that bad players do, and never at the expense of proper odds or lost bets.

so

just as bad players have similar but fundamentally different poker values than good players do, they take similar lines with radically different thought processes than good players do.

occasionally these lines lead to them accidentally playing perfectly against us [why does that f#$^# fish keep calling my bluffs with bottom pair?]. More often, they are misapplied and result in spewing.

There are a couple of specific lines that I'd like to address, and I'd love to hear other contributions as well. The deeper we can get into that mindset, the greater our ability to exploit it.

Here's my first example:

The Stop'n'Go

defined as:just calling a bet or raise out of position [the stop], and then leading out on the next street [the go].

Good players take this line when they have a moderately made hand and suspects an opponent may be either ahead or drawing. This prevents leading players from reraising, and it prevents drawing players from taking a free card. If an opponent is not capable of betting or raising and taking a free card on the next street with a draw, then this play is not usually recommended.

Bad players do this too. The difference is that the are unmotivated by our possible holdings. Most stop'n'go's from bad players that I've seen come from moderately made hands like middle pair or a mid pp that the bad player is afraid to cap with. The main difference is that bad players can make this move whether or not there is a draw on the board. They also have a hard time folding to a raise under most circumstances. In thier mind, the two cards they hold are worth about one or two bets per street, and they know that if they get capped they may have to fold, so they'd rather just not find that out. they may value showing down more than thier money This mentality may mean that thier hands are more difficult to read, but it also widens thier range to the point that it's often profitable to continue betting and raising with most moderately ok holdings.

another note here. Occasionally they'll stumble into the correct situation for this play with the correct cards, forcing you to fold. If this happens more than once or twice in a short session, they'll notice and start taking shots with worse hands. This probably shouldn't change our strategy much, but it may net us more money when we go into calldown mode against them.

I'll update this as I think I can define more of them. Feel free to add your own! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: lines bad players take that good players misinterpret
 

well thought out post. sorry for this crappy one.

they love, love, love, to bet the river when OoP. i think this relates to your first bolded point above. especially if it's a hu pot on the turn and the turn gets checked through. i think this is an autobet for the guy OoP on the river w/ many players.

Re: lines bad players take that good players misinterpret
 

also, how about the obvious slowplay:

hu pot, they check through on the flop w/ the initiative and position. if you bet the turn you will be raised.

this is usually bad because their flop check limits their range greatly (they only do it with monsters).

Re: lines bad players take that good players misinterpret
 

I like both of these. I'll try to get inside the mind of the bad player a little more with these plays specifically when I get home later.

roight ahhn!

Re: lines bad players take that good players misinterpret
 

I think one line that many good players take that is often times considered *bad* is playing passively against TAGs at 6-max tables. (Relax, I'm not going to taking this too far).

I've read about 15+ posts in the last two days where villain has been read to be passive. One of the better defenses against 2p2'ers (aside from the TAG v TAG who's #$*& is bigger cap all street line) is sLAPping him. That is, loosening slightly preflop to hit the boards AK-AT miss, and letting the TAG bet for you in heads-up contests. (I'm not saying 94o OOP ... stress the *semi* in semi-loose).

Anyway, good & bad players alike take this effective defense against 6-max TAGs. Good players do it on purpose, while bad players do it by accident.

So, I'm wondering in these 15+ posts of very good, complex & interesting hands, how many of the villains were bad & passive and how many recognized Hero as a money guzzling TAG and played appropriate defense? Hmm...

Whatever, nevermind...

Re: lines bad players take that good players misinterpret
 

[ QUOTE ]
especially if it's a hu pot on the turn and the turn gets checked through. i think this is an autobet for the guy OoP on the river w/ many players.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whats wrong with that? (HU)

Re: lines bad players take that good players misinterpret
 

There's a lot to be learned from bad players.

Re: lines bad players take that good players misinterpret
 

easily exploitable, pluiss the fact that many of these guys arne't capa leof of bet/folding

Re: lines bad players take that good players misinterpret
 

here's one named for bad players.

The Donkbet

defined as: leading out of position without initiative from a previous street.

The only difference between this and the stop and go is that there doesn't have to be a pf or flop aggressor to donk a street. Also known as the "bet out of nowhere"

Good players do this with vulnerable (but possibly showdownable) hands that a villain has likely missed. Usually it takes a non-calling station read and a non-bluff raiser read on the villain to do this with a weak hand.

Ex. villain calls from the CO and hero checks in the BB. Flop is XXY rainbow. Hero bets, villain folds.


Bad players tend not to donk because they think the board missed you though. They aren't thinking about whether or not it makes sense for that flop to have connected with your range. They only see the cards in front of them. This means that most often, they are donking made pairs. They are not worried about folding better hands, they just want to flex with the hand that they are in now, and win without a showdown. Bad players will occasionally use the donk to take shots at you if you fold too much on the flop though.

------

Good players may also donk into crowds with strong draws. This may build a nice pot and tie others to it with vulnerable hands to it.

Ex. five limpers and hero completes in the sb with K5:hearts: The flop comes with two hearts and hero donks.

Bad players typically don't donk in these situations. They don't understand equity, and even with five opponents and a strong draw they'll be content to check and call until they hit.

In general, I read a donk from a bad player as a made pair that wants to bet because he thinks you'll fold.


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I feel this is a little incomplete. Would anyone care to add to this?

Re: lines bad players take that good players misinterpret
 

This thread is fantastic. Thank you.

Re: lines bad players take that good players misinterpret
 

Donking is player dependent. One of the most valuable things you can pick up at the table is what specifically does each opponent donk with. Some donk top pair, any pair, set on a drawy board, 4-flush, OESD, gutshot, or any combo of the above. Also, sitting to the left of a compulsive donker allows you to protect your moderate to stronger made hands too.

Re: lines bad players take that good players misinterpret
 

[ QUOTE ]
sitting to the left of a compulsive donker allows you to protect your moderate to stronger made hands too.

[/ QUOTE ]
Sitting to the left of a compulsive donker forces you to fold many marginal hands you'd prefer to keep. Other times it causes you to be trapped for extra bets. When putting money into the pot it is best to be first (betting) or last (closing). The second guy investing money is in the worst possible spot and must play the tightest to compensate.

It is true that the field-killer raise will win you some extra pots. Problem is that's not how poker players keep score. Nothing makes me happier than a PFR telling me clearly that this is not the right hand for one of my light flop calls. Players who donk into PFRs are money in the bank for the rest of the table. The donker's investment is unsound and the PFR is put in a tough spot. Everyone else benefits from the free information and the lucrative trapping chances.

Re: lines bad players take that good players misinterpret
 

[ QUOTE ]
defined as:just calling a bet or raise out of position [the stop], and then leading out on the next street [the go].

[/ QUOTE ]
It's not a stop-n-go if you played passively on the previous street. The key elements of the stop-n-go are:

1. Aggressive action (bet/raise) on the flop or turn.

2. Getting raised by a player who has position on you.

3. Just calling that raise when you could have reraised.

4. Betting out again on the next street.

There is a fifth element that is implied although it cannot always be verified:

5. Using the same values for the bet on the new street. The "cool, I hit my flush" bet is not called a stop-n-go if everyone recognizes it for what it is.

Re: lines bad players take that good players misinterpret
 

[ QUOTE ]
here's one named for bad players.

The Donkbet

defined as: leading out of position without initiative from a previous street.

The only difference between this and the stop and go is that there doesn't have to be a pf or flop aggressor to donk a street. Also known as the "bet out of nowhere"

Good players do this with vulnerable (but possibly showdownable) hands that a villain has likely missed. Usually it takes a non-calling station read and a non-bluff raiser read on the villain to do this with a weak hand.

Ex. villain calls from the CO and hero checks in the BB. Flop is XXY rainbow. Hero bets, villain folds.


Bad players tend not to donk because they think the board missed you though. They aren't thinking about whether or not it makes sense for that flop to have connected with your range. They only see the cards in front of them. This means that most often, they are donking made pairs. They are not worried about folding better hands, they just want to flex with the hand that they are in now, and win without a showdown. Bad players will occasionally use the donk to take shots at you if you fold too much on the flop though.

------

Good players may also donk into crowds with strong draws. This may build a nice pot and tie others to it with vulnerable hands to it.

Ex. five limpers and hero completes in the sb with K5:hearts: The flop comes with two hearts and hero donks.

Bad players typically don't donk in these situations. They don't understand equity, and even with five opponents and a strong draw they'll be content to check and call until they hit.

In general, I read a donk from a bad player as a made pair that wants to bet because he thinks you'll fold.


---

I feel this is a little incomplete. Would anyone care to add to this?

[/ QUOTE ]

Good players also use this move to disguise an incredibly strong hand that they want to be raised with.

Blind battle: Button raises, I 3-bet 99 in the SB, and the BB, a fairly aggressive TAG, caps. Button folds.

The flop is 982. I bet. BB raises. I call.

The turn is a 7 bringing a flush draw to the board. I bet. BB raises. I 3-bet.

Rob

Re: lines bad players take that good players misinterpret
 

[ QUOTE ]
Sitting to the left of a compulsive donker forces you to fold many marginal hands you'd prefer to keep. Other times it causes you to be trapped for extra bets. When putting money into the pot it is best to be first (betting) or last (closing). The second guy investing money is in the worst possible spot and must play the tightest to compensate.

[/ QUOTE ]
So it sounds like you'd rather sit to the donker's right than his left. One obvious benefit of this is you have the relative button postflop reasonably often, or are at least one of the last to act. However, I was thinking in terms of protecting my hand.

For example: 4 to the flop, I openraised in the HJ with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], flop is A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], SB checks, donk BB donkbets, Hero raises. 4-way TPGK needs protection.

Another: Again 4 to the flop, I open 3-off the button with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], flop is T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], SB checks, donk BB donkbets, Hero raises. 4-way this hand needs to charge weak or strong draws and also is vulnerable.

Also, I was thinking about situations where I have a marginal holding but am probably ahead of the donker. I can raise him and represent a hand stronger than what I actually hold to get the pot HU to the turn where I'm probably ahead.

Example: 3 to an unraised flop, Hero holds J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] in the BB, flop is Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], donk SB donkbets, Hero raises.


I guess there are merits to seats on either side of him. Another benefit to sitting on his right is the opportunity to trap others in between for bets after they call his flop donk. I never thought specifically about having to act immediately after the first bet on a street as being a disadvantage though. Good point.

Re: lines bad players take that good players misinterpret
 

[ QUOTE ]

It's not a stop-n-go if you played passively on the previous street. The key elements of the stop-n-go are:

1. Aggressive action (bet/raise) on the flop or turn.

2. Getting raised by a player who has position on you.

3. Just calling that raise when you could have reraised.

4. Betting out again on the next street.

There is a fifth element that is implied although it cannot always be verified:

5. Using the same values for the bet on the new street. The "cool, I hit my flush" bet is not called a stop-n-go if everyone recognizes it for what it is.

[/ QUOTE ]

thanks for that correction Stellar. I knew I messed that up.

Re: lines bad players take that good players misinterpret
 

hey I got put in the digest!

I'll try to add another here, and see how I do.

the turn checkraise

the turn is easily the most difficult street to play in holdem, as the combination of bigger bets and more cards to come combine to create both good bluffing/value opportunities as well as expensive spewing that is usually worsened on the river.

good players can checkraise the turn in different situations and for different reasons, but there is generally a specific goal in mind, and it often requires specific implied actions from the opponents in the hand.

There are generally two broad good player checkraises

<font color="blue">--the value turn checkraise--</font>
usually done with an aggressor directly to hero's left from the previous street. Often this means that hero either slowplayed a monster on the flop or improved to a strong hand on the turn.
Ex:
-mp raises, sb calls, hero calls from the bb with JT[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
the flop comes 629 with two [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]s. Hero leads, mp raises, sb calls, hero calls.
turn is the 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
hero checks, mp bets, sb calls, hero raises

<font color="blue">--the bluff turn checkraise--</font>
comes when we have an unmade hand (usually with outs)- or a hand that won't improve and a read that villain's hand is foldable. A read that villain can fold is also imperative. This read usually comes from failed value turn checkraises.

Ex.

villain opens in the CO and hero calls from the BB with QTs.

flop comes J65 rainbow. hero checks,villain bets,hero calls.

turn is a 4 completing the rainbow. hero checks,villain bets,hero raises,villain folds.

-----------

bad players can checkraise the turn as well.

Generally speaking, bad players will systematically make two errors - they wont raise enough, and they wont fold enough.

some bad players have played long enough to know that they are making one of these errors, and will the radically compensate to the other side (becoming maniacs and rocks)

Generally, your standard loose fish type bad player will not checkraise the turn without a made hand.

I tend to take turn checkraises from shorthanded players with vpips over 55 and low pfr numbers very seriously. This is because many players with these type of stats are essentially dragnetting thier poker hands, and often play very close to fit or fold postflop.

They like to let the flop define thier hands, and many have watched Sammy Farha limp with J4o and take a guy's stack when he hits on ESPN. The turn (and sometimes river) checkraise is a simile to Farha's all-in move for these players, and they love making a hand and pulling it off.

This is why they play poker. This is the entertainment factor they get. They want to get lucky enough to "outsmart" other players on the expensive streets.

Bad players often do not take into consideration the preflop aggressor, and so will occasionally stuble upon a screwplay [bet,call/check,bet,"screw you" raise]

Ironically, many bad players get very scared when thier turn checkraises get threebet - and they tend to fold too much to this reraise with hands that are too far from the nuts.

They see this move as a very powerful one, and standing up to it can make them wet thier little pants.

or it can get you capped. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: lines bad players take that good players misinterpret
 

[ QUOTE ]
However, I was thinking in terms of protecting my hand.

For example: 4 to the flop, I openraised in the HJ with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], flop is A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], SB checks, donk BB donkbets, Hero raises. 4-way TPGK needs protection.


[/ QUOTE ]

Sure, it's nice then. But how often is the flop J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]? How do you like the donk better sitting to your right now? Which situation do you think is more common?