Something different - KK
 

5/10 6-max (6-handed)

Villain is a 45/13. Postflop he is normal/passive, playing a reasonable number of hands but not betting or raising enough.

Hero is Cutoff with K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].

Preflop: MP raises, Hero 3-bets, only MP calls.

Flop (7 SB): A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP checks, Hero checks.

Turn (3.5 BB) 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP bets, Hero calls.

River (5.5 BB) 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP bets, Hero calls.

Re: Something different - KK
 

Hmm, usually I do not do this, but it seems like a classice WA/WB

Re: Something different - KK
 

Doesn't your read mean that the villain is (1) likely to call down with a worse hand, and (2) unlikely to c/r with a better hand? If so, why not just bet each street?

Alternatively, how about raising (and folding to 3-bet) the river? This type of passive opponent seems capable of making a crying call with a worse hand.

Re: Something different - KK
 

Why no flop bet? Aren't you ahead here a lot of the time, especially with the flush draw?

Re: Something different - KK
 

Also, the Kh is key. And above I meant that it is a WA/WB situation. You didn't take the typical line, but frankly I like it.

Re: Something different - KK
 

This is in the loss minimization camp. Why do we want to be there? I like the flop check behind, but I would raise this turn. I would also bet it, if checked to.

Re: Something different - KK
 

i would bet the flop. If you're gonna take the wa/wb line i guess it's fine, but i would think you're giving up a lot here against a passive opponent. I'd likely bet the flop and turn if checked to. If i wanted to wuss out, i'd check the river behind.

but i dont play 5/10.

Re: Something different - KK
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hmm, usually I do not do this, but it seems like a classice WA/WB

[/ QUOTE ]

Not quite. Hero has a boatload of outs if he's behind. It's more like WA/B, but he's pretty likely to be behind. I'd rather bet the flop and take a free turn card.

Re: Something different - KK
 

hero's hand is awesome on the flop. you guys are weak

Board: Ah 4h 2h
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 72.8850 % [ 00.72 00.00 ] { KhKd }
Hand 2: 27.1150 % [ 00.27 00.00 ] { JJ-66, AKs-A7s, KQs-K9s, QJs-QTs, JTs, AKo-A9o, KQo-KTo, QJo }
Board: Ah 4h 2h
Dead:

Board: Ah 4h 2h
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 69.8976 % [ 00.66 00.04 ] { AsQs }
Hand 2: 30.1024 % [ 00.26 00.04 ] { JJ-66, AKs-A7s, KQs-K9s, QJs-QTs, JTs, AKo-A9o, KQo-KTo, QJo }

do lots of betting. lots of worse stuff will pay to see the river

Re: Something different - KK
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hmm, usually I do not do this, but it seems like a classice WA/WB

[/ QUOTE ]

Not quite. Hero has a boatload of outs if he's behind. It's more like WA/B, but he's pretty likely to be behind. I'd rather bet the flop and take a free turn card.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, I had to read the post 3x before I realized there was a monotone flop. I could have sworn that was the 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. Yeah I think I bet the frop here. Lots of calls from hearts and lost of outs if he turns out to have an A.

Re: Something different - KK
 

well I'll admit that I will bet the flop here, and then make a tough decision on the turn if I still have the initiative. I don't really understand this line.

Re: Something different - KK
 

[ QUOTE ]
hero's hand is awesome on the flop. you guys are weak

Board: Ah 4h 2h
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 72.8850 % [ 00.72 00.00 ] { KhKd }
Hand 2: 27.1150 % [ 00.27 00.00 ] { JJ-66, AKs-A7s, KQs-K9s, QJs-QTs, JTs, AKo-A9o, KQo-KTo, QJo }
Board: Ah 4h 2h
Dead:

Board: Ah 4h 2h
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 69.8976 % [ 00.66 00.04 ] { AsQs }
Hand 2: 30.1024 % [ 00.26 00.04 ] { JJ-66, AKs-A7s, KQs-K9s, QJs-QTs, JTs, AKo-A9o, KQo-KTo, QJo }

do lots of betting. lots of worse stuff will pay to see the river

[/ QUOTE ]

Hero's hand may be awesome, but a lot of the hands you mentioned fold the flop if Hero bets.

Re: Something different - KK
 

Many have said bet the flop here. I don't like it, and here's why. Maybe someone can show me why I'm wrong.

If you're way ahead:
1. Betting the flop will fold air.
2. Betting the flop could fold air with a medium/low heart.
3. Betting the flop could fold medium PPs and lower, maybe even up to JJ without hearts.

If you're way behind, well you save a small bet. I don't believe an Ace pulls a check raise on a flop this scary though, so if you're way behind, it's to AA, 44 or 22. 44 and 22 are unlikely due to the PFR, and more unlikely when the 4 falls. So that leaves AA, 3 ways. Then this line loses the least (aside from folding).

If your a little behind (Ax), you have at worst 10 outs.

So weighing everything together, I prefer to induce a turn bet that Villain might think is for value. The chance he folds to the flop bet is too high, compared to the chance he draws out on the turn to a hand Hero is beating now. Induce that bet for at least one street. I'd bet the turn if he checks again.

Re: Something different - KK
 

[ QUOTE ]
hero's hand is awesome on the flop. you guys are weak

[/ QUOTE ]

Hero's hand is very awesome here, IMO. So why does that mean we should bet the flop?

Re: Something different - KK
 

I personally don't check the flop in this spot. If villain indeed has an A, you can find out on the flop. If there were only 2 hearts on the flop, I would still bet, but would be less inclined to do so. With 11 cards to make the best hand if behind, in addition to the possibility we are ahead, I would want to be aggressive with this hand. If villain has QQ/JJ/TT with a heart, he is probably going to pay you off, so why not put chips into the pot on every street (with the exception of the river perhaps)?

Re: Something different - KK
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
hero's hand is awesome on the flop. you guys are weak

Board: Ah 4h 2h
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 72.8850 % [ 00.72 00.00 ] { KhKd }
Hand 2: 27.1150 % [ 00.27 00.00 ] { JJ-66, AKs-A7s, KQs-K9s, QJs-QTs, JTs, AKo-A9o, KQo-KTo, QJo }
Board: Ah 4h 2h
Dead:

Board: Ah 4h 2h
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 69.8976 % [ 00.66 00.04 ] { AsQs }
Hand 2: 30.1024 % [ 00.26 00.04 ] { JJ-66, AKs-A7s, KQs-K9s, QJs-QTs, JTs, AKo-A9o, KQo-KTo, QJo }

do lots of betting. lots of worse stuff will pay to see the river

[/ QUOTE ]

Hero's hand may be awesome, but a lot of the hands you mentioned fold the flop if Hero bets.

[/ QUOTE ]

hero is still making lots of money on bets that go in on the flop. he's 42% against an ace and everything else is pretty close to drawing dead, and theres lots of hands that will call drawing dead here

Re: Something different - KK
 

I don't think you can call it WA/WB, because Hero is almost never WB here. He typically has 11 outs.

However, I don't mind checking behind on the flop, because it may convince MP that his weaker hands are good and cause him to bet them.

I see it as more of a FCA/SB situation (face-crushingly ahead/slightly behind).

Re: Something different - KK
 

I dont have a problem with this.

tho im not sure if this is the right opponent to do it on, sounds like you are missing out on bets when he has a heart in his hand and will call down, but is still passive enough that he isnt going to bluff at you or "value bet" worse holdings.

Re: Something different - KK
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hero's hand may be awesome, but a lot of the hands you mentioned fold the flop if Hero bets.

[/ QUOTE ]

hero is still making lots of money on bets that go in on the flop. he's 42% against an ace and everything else is pretty close to drawing dead, and theres lots of hands that will call drawing dead here

[/ QUOTE ]

He may be making lots of money on bets that go in the flop, but if villain folds hands that would of put money in the turn, we are giving up a decent amount of EV by betting the flop.

Re: Something different - KK
 

[ QUOTE ]
tho im not sure if this is the right opponent to do it on, sounds like you are missing out on bets when he has a heart in his hand and will call down, but is still passive enough that he isnt going to bluff at you or "value bet" worse holdings.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you were villain, you wouldn't *value-bet* QQ-55 here? With or without the heart? I would.

Re: Something different - KK
 

[ QUOTE ]
Many have said bet the flop here. I don't like it, and here's why. Maybe someone can show me why I'm wrong.

If you're way ahead:
1. Betting the flop will fold air.
2. Betting the flop could fold air with a medium/low heart.
3. Betting the flop could fold medium PPs and lower, maybe even up to JJ without hearts.


[/ QUOTE ]

This ignores the read on the player as LP. I assume such a player will call down with a lower pocket pair.

Re: Something different - KK
 

If the opponent is as passive as suggested, I think I bet the flop and turn and check the river unimproved as the cheapest way to showdown and the most profitable if a heart hits.
Giving up the lead will let good hearts get free cards, and force to pay more when behind.

Re: Something different - KK
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
tho im not sure if this is the right opponent to do it on, sounds like you are missing out on bets when he has a heart in his hand and will call down, but is still passive enough that he isnt going to bluff at you or "value bet" worse holdings.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you were villain, you wouldn't *value-bet* QQ-55 here? With or without the heart? I would.

[/ QUOTE ]

we arent talking about you or I, we are talking about a passive villian. He will definitely call down with these hands tho (heart or no) cuz thats what passives do, so again, I dont think this is the right person to try it on.

Re: Something different - KK
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
tho im not sure if this is the right opponent to do it on, sounds like you are missing out on bets when he has a heart in his hand and will call down, but is still passive enough that he isnt going to bluff at you or "value bet" worse holdings.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you were villain, you wouldn't *value-bet* QQ-55 here? With or without the heart? I would.

[/ QUOTE ]

he would've called down anyway with those hands

and if he's not "betting or raising enough" hes not betting KsJs on the turn

Re: Something different - KK
 

Spicymoose,

Props on all you've said. The same thoughts ran through my mind. PokerStove is very over-utilized when making post-flop decisions.

However, I don't necessarily agree with this line at face value. I'd like to know villian's WTSD numbers first. If he's the type of player who can't let go of premiums regardless of the action, I'm going to bet away. If he's folding a lot of flops, I don't mind checking one bit.

Re: Something different - KK
 

here's why I'm not sure I like this lines ---- reverse implied odds (the 50+% of the time that we don't improve)

in other words, it seems like the bets that go in on the flop we are getting the best of it, but when villain starts leading and we're not improving we are getting the worst of it. I want to keep the initiative so that when it gets to the river and we haven't improved the decision to put in a bet or not is ours.

Re: Something different - KK
 

[ QUOTE ]
This ignores the read on the player as LP.

[/ QUOTE ]
Postflop read is Normal/Passive.

Re: Something different - KK
 

[ QUOTE ]
This ignores the read on the player as LP. I assume such a player will call down with a lower pocket pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, it doesn't ignore the read. Also, the read was that he was normal, not passive. Further, how often does a monotone board flop? Even a strong read that the villain is normal/passive may not mean that he plays that way on a monotone board.

Anyway, just my 2 cents.

Re: Something different - KK
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hero's hand may be awesome, but a lot of the hands you mentioned fold the flop if Hero bets.

[/ QUOTE ]

hero is still making lots of money on bets that go in on the flop. he's 42% against an ace and everything else is pretty close to drawing dead, and theres lots of hands that will call drawing dead here

[/ QUOTE ]

He may be making lots of money on bets that go in the flop, but if villain folds hands that would of put money in the turn, we are giving up a decent amount of EV by betting the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which unpaired no-heart draw hands that fold the flop will bet the turn exactly?

Krishan

Re: Something different - KK
 

[ QUOTE ]
we arent talking about you or I, we are talking about a passive villian. He will definitely call down with these hands tho (heart or no) cuz thats what passives do, so again, I dont think this is the right person to try it on.

[/ QUOTE ]

See my other post which doesn't put as much stock in a good read on a monotone board. They are so infrequent & scary looking to poor hands that typically players play at least a little differently than non-threatening boards. I put much less emphasis in the read in this hand.

Perhaps OP can state whether villain was passive enough to liberally call with 77, no heart.

Re: Something different - KK
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This ignores the read on the player as LP.

[/ QUOTE ]
Postflop read is Normal/Passive.

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps I misinterpreted. I see in your OP you said "Postflop he is normal/passive, playing a reasonable number of hands but not betting or raising enough."

That still suggests to me that the villain is unlikely to raise without a better hand. But I guess the line really depends on how "passive" or how "normal" the opponent is postflop. The more "normal," the more I like it.

Re: Something different - KK
 

i don't like it.

Re: Something different - KK
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hero's hand may be awesome, but a lot of the hands you mentioned fold the flop if Hero bets.

[/ QUOTE ]

hero is still making lots of money on bets that go in on the flop. he's 42% against an ace and everything else is pretty close to drawing dead, and theres lots of hands that will call drawing dead here

[/ QUOTE ]

He may be making lots of money on bets that go in the flop, but if villain folds hands that would of put money in the turn, we are giving up a decent amount of EV by betting the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which unpaired no-heart draw hands that fold the flop will bet the turn exactly?

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

Villain may be normal/passive postflop, but I think that even these players might stab occasionally on this scary board after having the turn checked through. Hero 3-bet preflop, and then seems to be scared of the board. QJ or similar hands might think that they can win this by betting the turn. Furthermore, 77-QQ ocassionaly folds to the flop bet, even from this type of player. We get money from him if we check the flop though.

Re: Something different - KK
 

A couple of comments on the early responses.

1. PokerStove: many of the hands I am ahead of on the flop are completely dead. They have zero outs to a draw that has pot odds to call the turn. Whether a hand like Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] folds on the flop or turn is immaterial. When doing your pot equity computations you should exclude this hand because my play isn't relevant--checking behind and driving him out with a bet have the same EV. Limit your simulation to hands that will actually call a flop bet.

Except of course that the free card may induce him to put money into the turn/river as a bluff or because he has picked up a pair or gutshot. In that case I gain because he doesn't have adequate odds to invest money.

2. A few of you want to bet the flop so you can consider taking a free card or free showdown. This makes me want to cry. Once you start betting this hand and don't get checkraised/donked your pot equity greatly increases. That's hardly a time to stop betting. The posters who want to bet the flop and keep firing have a much better case.

Re: Something different - KK
 

I think I would like this more if villain were more aggressive and could be counted on to bluff the turn when the flop checks through.

In that instance, checking the flop and raising the turn would be an awesome move if villain doesn't have the discipline to lay the hand down (or if he has a med pp with a heart like T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img])

the board pairing wouldn't be crazy troublesome to me, becaue no one raises pf with AA and just calls when you threebet. The only hands you're worried about are 22 and 44 that missed a flop checkraise, and both are moderately unlikely.

When a passive (or even semi-passive) leads the turn though, big aces and made flushes become a much greater portion of his range. Given that this guy wasn't aggressive enough to be counted on to bluff, I think we have to bet this flop and get through a non-heart turn as cheaply as we can (though we'll bet if checked to).

If he leads the turn after a flop bet, I fold the river UI, or check through if he checks.

Re: Something different - KK
 

[ QUOTE ]
The posters who want to bet the flop and keep firing have a much better case.

[/ QUOTE ]

...than those that want to bet the flop to take a free river. I totally agree. But, I think you're undervaluing the value a flop check-behind has by inducing a turn bet from decent, but nearly dead hands (e.g. QQ through 55 with or w/o a heart).

I'd like to read your opinion of this too, if you don't mind sharing it.

Re: Something different - KK
 

stellar: people saying to take a free showdown are thinking (i assume) that this player perhaps will be calling flop and turn bets with a hand like KJ[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] or Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]J. sure our equity is sky high, but the fact remains that a river bet becomes sketchy because he won't call with much we beat, and he most likely caps JJ and QQ so those should be discounted when we speak of river value betting.

it would seem that the way you played this hand only allows for two big bets to be put in postflop when he actually has an ace.

Re: Something different - KK
 

[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps I misinterpreted. I see in your OP you said "Postflop he is normal/passive, playing a reasonable number of hands but not betting or raising enough."

That still suggests to me that the villain is unlikely to raise without a better hand. But I guess the line really depends on how "passive" or how "normal" the opponent is postflop. The more "normal," the more I like it.

[/ QUOTE ]
Normal/passive is the place between tight/passive and loose/passive. This is a stat-based read with hundreds of hands but no personal insight. I don't know if he would make the fold with 77 or not, except to say that he has poor-player stats and folding pairs does not come easily to poor players.

It is my experience that otherwise passive players sometimes become more aggressive when they can represent a hand that I am very unlikely to be able to beat. I'm unlikely to have flopped the flush here so I'm prepared for both bluffs and aggressive value betting.

Re: Something different - KK
 

Yeah I don't think a situation like this HU with a monotone A - high flop is something that is helped all that much with a read. If it was a very loose aggressive player you may want to go to war with this hand, but against other players, especailly passive ones, you won't know all that much about his hand because a bet on the flop could mean several things. If he sees hero as a TAG, this won't help him out either in understanding hero's flop check.

I like the flop check for the reasons mentioned - that only hands that beat you put money into the pot, so better to see a turn card. But I like to bet while the betting is good - on the flop for value with a strong hand. The passive may not bluff the turn with QQ/JJ if he doesn't have a heart, but may call the flop hoping that you are on a heart draw and not the Ace. The passive may not call a turn bet without the Ace if you check the flop, so really all you are hoping for is to be bet into on the turn with a worse hand. The passive will be afraid you have the A or flush, so this is unlikely.

Hitting the jackpot (results)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Which unpaired no-heart draw hands that fold the flop will bet the turn exactly?

[/ QUOTE ]
Apparently K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] will. MHIG.