KK makes set and gets donked...
 

MP1 is a super fish. SB and BB no real reads.

Flop: I call to try to get SB or BB to stay in... I figure raising will be sure to knock them out and maybe there's a small chance they will call if I don't raise.

Turn: No flush card, I raise having set up MP1 on the flop for this and I need to charge him if he's betting with a weaker hand or drawing to the flush.

River: Make my full house obviously need to bet.

How did I play this? Suggestions on the flop/turn line I took?

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (9 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB calls, BB calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (8 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, Hero calls, SB folds, BB folds.

Turn: (5 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP1 calls.

River: (9 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 folds.

Final Pot: 10 BB

Re: KK makes set and gets donked...
 

I would have just gone ahead and raised the flop in case anyone wanted to get cute behind me or had a strong draw thast they would call two bets with. Also MP1 might not bet again on the turn.

Re: KK makes set and gets donked...
 

I think you need to raise the flop to try and get rid of the flush draws. Although at .25/.5 you won't, you can at least make them pay for it.

Turn and river fine.

Re: KK makes set and gets donked...
 

I would raise the flop and hope he wants to go to war.

Re: KK makes set and gets donked...
 

Grunch.

Raise the flop. you were the pre-flop aggressor and you have an equity edge. In the micro limits there's not many times you need to make this play. Rest of the hand is fine.

Re: KK makes set and gets donked...
 

Grunch:

Flop is fine, though for the wrong reason. You want to call here so you can raise the turn making him pay the extra big bet vs a small bet for the flush. And if the flush hits on the turn, depending on your read of Villain, you either want to raise it here and see what he does or c/c to the river.

Turn and river are fine I think you extracted as much money as you can from this hand.

Re: KK makes set and gets donked...
 

Grunch. I would raise the flop to charge the FDs and hopefully fold lone big diamonds. Also, MP1 liked his hand enough to donk, so there is a chance that you can get multiple bets from him here. The rest is fine.

Re: KK makes set and gets donked...
 

Raise the flop.
The other streets are perfect.

Re: KK makes set and gets donked...
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would have just gone ahead and raised the flop in case anyone wanted to get cute behind me or had a strong draw thast they would call two bets with.

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Given the size of the pot I think raising the flop would make it correct to call for anyone chasing the flush draw on both the turn and the river. Its even worse if they 2 players behind Hero decide to CC the 2 bets and come along for the ride. I think calling and raising the turn is the better line to take. The two players behind hero might also decide to come along for one bet and fold to the turn raise, whereas had they paid 2SB, they may call the turn because of the larger pot and the fact it would only be 1BB to them see as it is likely MP1 would just c/c the turn.

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Also MP1 might not bet again on the turn.

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True MP1 might not bet again on the turn, but in micro limits the average player usually tend to lead again on the turn until their opponents show some strength.

Re: KK makes set and gets donked...
 

You guys have to stop worrying about gettign flush draws to fold and start worrying about getting a bunch of bets in when you have a good hand. If you raise and some guy coldcalls and this moron decides to 3-bet with something then you can call to raise the turn because you have a nice little setup.

After one donk into you on the flop, I'm not waiting for the turn because there is no guarantee he is betting again. Also, if a diamond comes you might freeze up and change your raising plan. Raising preflop and then just calling the flop and raising the turn screams monster to me and you might even get a bet/fold on the turn.

Re: KK makes set and gets donked...
 

[ QUOTE ]
After one donk into you on the flop, I'm not waiting for the turn because there is no guarantee he is betting again. Also, if a diamond comes you might freeze up and change your raising plan. Raising preflop and then just calling the flop and raising the turn screams monster to me and you might even get a bet/fold on the turn.


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completely agree.

Re: KK makes set and gets donked...
 

*grunch*

Hmm.... Normally I'd play this the same way with two people left to call behind you. In this particular case, though, with the two diamonds on the board, I'd probably raise to protect my hand here. You'd kick yourself if SB or BB call down and beat you with a flush on the river.

Turn: Since you didn't raise the flop, MP1 comes out firing again. In cases like this, where I'm HU with someone I'm almost certainly beating and they're being aggressive, I'll play rope-a-dope with them. Let them fire on the flop and turn, and then raise the river. If you raise the turn, as you did, you may or may not get another BB out of them on the river, but if you wait until the river, they'll almost always call your raise to see the showdown, thus gaining one more BB for you.

Re: KK makes set and gets donked...
 

[ QUOTE ]
In this particular case, though, with the two diamonds on the board, I'd probably raise to protect my hand here.

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A raise won't protect your hand. There are 8 SB in the pot to start, 11 SB after the bet and the raise, and probably 12 SB unless you think MP1 will fold (unlikely). It's only 2SB to call, so that's 6:1 on a 4:1 play. You'd love a flush draw to fold because it's correct for him to call, but I don't think one will.

Raising is still good though, because you have huge equity on all bets that are going in on the flop.

PP

Re: KK makes set and gets donked...
 

Wouldn't his 3-bet make it 13:3, still odds to call but just barely and if you make a rounding error.

Re: KK makes set and gets donked...
 

*grunch*
PF: standard

FLop: I raise here. Slowplay is for when you have a small pot (not really the case, but it isn't huge) and your opponents need a chance to improve to a hand that doesn't beat you. With a two-flush on the board, which beats our set, I want to charge any diamonds to draw.

Turn, river, I play the same.

Re: KK makes set and gets donked...
 

Well, if you knew that MP1 would 3-bet, then it's 14:3 (unless you think hero would fold to a 3-bet after raising), which makes it a call.

If you knew that MP1 would 3-bet and hero would cap, it's 16:4 (unless you think MP1 would fold to the cap), which still makes it a call (slightly wrong but implied odds make up for it).

PP

Re: KK makes set and gets donked...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Grunch:

Flop is fine, though for the wrong reason. You want to call here so you can raise the turn making him pay the extra big bet vs a small bet for the flush. And if the flush hits on the turn, depending on your read of Villain, you either want to raise it here and see what he does or c/c to the river.

Turn and river are fine I think you extracted as much money as you can from this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

zactly

Re: KK makes set and gets donked...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Grunch:

Flop is fine, though for the wrong reason. You want to call here so you can raise the turn making him pay the extra big bet vs a small bet for the flush. And if the flush hits on the turn, depending on your read of Villain, you either want to raise it here and see what he does or c/c to the river.

Turn and river are fine I think you extracted as much money as you can from this hand.

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zactly

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Sorry I don't agree. Also, one thing I left out is just calling allows the lone A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] to continue cheaply. If Hero didn't have the K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] this would be even worse.

Re: KK makes set and gets donked...
 

Considering the OP's read on MP1, I assume he will at least call anything I put out there, flop, turn, whenever, so I raise the flop.

Hands like this make me wish I could see what MP1 actually had that made him think it was a good idea to play it like that. Weird.

Re: KK makes set and gets donked...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Grunch:

Flop is fine, though for the wrong reason. You want to call here so you can raise the turn making him pay the extra big bet vs a small bet for the flush. And if the flush hits on the turn, depending on your read of Villain, you either want to raise it here and see what he does or c/c to the river.

Turn and river are fine I think you extracted as much money as you can from this hand.

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zactly

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Sorry I don't agree. Also, one thing I left out is just calling allows the lone A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] to continue cheaply. If Hero had black Kings this would be even worse.

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Not agreeing is great. It's why we are here.

So my thoughts, the only hand the hero really fears is the flush (perhaps a straight) and if the flush comes on the turn there will be enough in the pot to continue on to the river drawing to the full house or better.

What happens if we raise on the flop? As Psuedo said the next guy get's 6:1 to draw and the odds get better for the next guy. So our opponents with a flush draw, a pair and a flush draw, or some straight draw are probably getting the right odds to draw. But they are not getting the correct odds for having only the Ace of diamonds if we just call.

If we wait til the turn to raise, then we will have a much better idea of where we stand with respect to flushes and straights. If a blank falls, we can jam it only worrying about river knowing that one of the diamonds gives us a fullhouse.

In short, I think our pot equity skyrockets if a blank falls on the turn and that's the time to get into a raising war.

Re: KK makes set and gets donked...
 

Grunch:

Best intentions usually = kick in the nuts.

You gotta raise the flop with 2 diamonds showing. After that, keep your foot on the accelerator &amp; get what you can.

Re: KK makes set and gets donked...
 

Grunching:

The only thing I have to say is with the diamond flush draw on the board on the flop, I'm raising making people pay to draw to their flushes.

Re: KK makes set and gets donked...
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think you need to raise the flop to try and get rid of the flush draws. Although at .25/.5 you won't, you can at least make them pay for it.

Turn and river fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

One of the most important things you need to understand in limit hold'em is that you can NEVER get rid of flush draws.

Never.

Not once.

But you can always bet and raise for value.

Re: KK makes set and gets donked...
 

I guess the part I don't understand is WHY I am raising the flop. Is it for value because I have the best hand or because of flush possibilities and I want to change the odds they are getting to make it an incorrect play for them? Or what?

Re: KK makes set and gets donked...
 

The thing is you have a huge hand, and even if someone makes a flush on the turn, you have a redraw to a huger hand. So waiting for the turn because your equity goes up isn't even something to worry about here. You WANT them to call more bets with flush draws.

Re: KK makes set and gets donked...
 

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After one donk into you on the flop, I'm not waiting for the turn because there is no guarantee he is betting again.

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Nobody is putting you on top set when you raise this flop.

They will think they are drawing live to their five outers. Raise.

Re: KK makes set and gets donked...
 

Ok - That makes sense shant, thanks

Re: KK makes set and gets donked...
 

*grunch*

Reraise flop, please! This is a poster child hand that screams don't slowplay

Stop reading WLLH, charging flushes...uh huh...dead give away. A flush draw will never let go. Go crazy on every street.

Crovax

Re: KK makes set and gets donked...
 

Unless the blinds are very weak-tight, then you should raise every chance you get. You have huge equity here, a straight draw is fairly unlikely, and just because there are two diamonds on the board doesn't mean someone has a draw. Flushdraws aren't going anywhere no matter what you do. And even if you just call the flop with intention to raise on the turn to protect your hand, you're still giving the blinds good enough odds to call on both streets with a flushdraw. Your hand isn't very vulnurable, there is no point in protecting, just build the pot as much as you can, and hope someone tries to draw to two pairs.

Re: KK makes set and gets donked...
 

Here, my friend, is the ML forum-approved list of all instances when you should slowplay a set or better:
<ul type="square">[*][/list]If you have a set or better and your situation is not on the above list, you need to bet the flop.

Re: KK makes set and gets donked...
 

RAISE THE FLOP!

Re: KK makes set and gets donked...
 

You should raise the flop.

If I put myself in MP1's shoes I'd look at your Turn raise and know you were slow-playing something. I'd fold right there. MP1 played his hand badly, that doesn't mean you played it correctly.

Re: KK makes set and gets donked...
 

Big pot + set = raise the flop

You will rarely be making a mistake if you follow the above advice. In fact I changed my mind...you will never be making a mistake.

Re: KK makes set and gets donked...
 

*grunch*

I'd raise the flop.