What really is my bankroll?
 

I am a student.
I have approx $4,000 in my current account
I have access to $2,000 interest free debt
I have another $2,000 of pretty much interest free student loan i can use, with another $2,000 coming in Jan (which i would already have used if i havent spent poker winnings instead)
I have roughly $8,000 in savings.

So what are the highest limits i should be playing?

at the moment i play 1-2NL, $200 sit downs.

I spend massive amounts going out at the moment but im going to really try and spend my monthly spend to $550 (amount my parents give me each month). That is for food and drink, i have no other bills - they pay for that.

therefore, all i earn poker wise i keep in my bankroll.

i dont want to touch my savings as losing that my parents would kill me. But i dont mind using my student loan as a bankroll, im expected to spend that anyway.

So i therefore think my bankroll is $4,000 current account + $2,000 student loan+$2,000 student loan in january

should i consider the £2,000 interest free overdraft in my bankroll as well? after all, i dont mind going into that.

Just ive been playing the 1-2NL for over a year now, and including a few sit and go play, im up around $17,000 (all which has pretty much gone on boozing, but hey, its been a sod load of fun, so i dont mind, just now i feel i should start building up some money rather than spending it all).

i feel ive got the game to be a much higher earner than i am.

i dont tilt, ever, ive gone through some terrible downswings and some great upswings, im mentally sound.

Im thinking of moving up to the $100 sit and go's and $2-$4NL.

i remember reading a quote from a great poker player, who also loved to gamble though, name i forget, that your bankroll should be every penny you can get your hands on.
Im not doing that, just every penny i can feel comforable with losing.

Any, a pretty pointless post maybe, just trying to get things clear in my head and i can reread if i need to, any comments much appreciated.

Re: What really is my bankroll?
 

Why don't you just make your roll 300BB (or whatever you're comfortable with - maybe 500BB), for the limit you're currently playing. Take a shot at $2-4NL if you want, risking 150BB or whatever you're comfortable with, but be prepared to drop down if you're not comfortable in the games.

Re: What really is my bankroll?
 

You spend $550 a month on just food and drinks? Cut it down to $300 and you have an extra $250 to play with.

Re: What really is my bankroll?
 

[ QUOTE ]
But i dont mind using my student loan as a bankroll, im expected to spend that anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a piss-poor reason for drawing on a loan if you really don't need to borrow.

Re: What really is my bankroll?
 

[ QUOTE ]
You spend $550 a month on just food and drinks? Cut it down to $300 and you have an extra $250 to play with.

[/ QUOTE ]
Depending on where you live, this can vary from difficult to impossible.

Re: What really is my bankroll?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But i dont mind using my student loan as a bankroll, im expected to spend that anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a piss-poor reason for drawing on a loan if you really don't need to borrow.

[/ QUOTE ]

lies. max out the credit cards. it's +EV.

Re: What really is my bankroll?
 

thanks for the replies so far.

reason i say i dont mind risking the student loan money is i suppose that in the grand scheme of things i dont want to lose any money that if my parents knew they be disappointed. They think ive got about $5,000 less than i actually have, so if i lost $5,000 at poker, they wouldnt have to know, just that if i lost more than that and they went to put money in my savings (they keep my saving books) and they saw id withdrawn money they instantly think i was in financial trouble and get very worried about me and that wouldnt be good. the trust me, i wouldnt want to break that.

also, im from the uk, and over here the student loan you might as well take out, as you can more from interest in a bank while your at uni than you do in the interest charges (after leaving uni it changes).

it just seems i should have more balls and move up limits - no pain no gain, got invest to win, all those saying. note id never risk more than i could afford to lose however bold i was feeling.

Re: What really is my bankroll?
 

Your bankroll is 16k + whatever you can barrow from your friends. Don't be a pussy.

Re: What really is my bankroll?
 

[ QUOTE ]
...i dont want to lose any money that if my parents knew they be disappointed. They think ive got about $5,000 less than i actually have, so if i lost $5,000 at poker, they wouldnt have to know

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
the trust me, i wouldnt want to break that.

[/ QUOTE ]
Is it just me, or...

Re: What really is my bankroll?
 

[ QUOTE ]
it just seems i should have more balls and move up limits - no pain no gain, got invest to win, all those saying.

[/ QUOTE ]

In the context of poker, those sayings are all dumb.

Re: What really is my bankroll?
 

Your bankroll is what you have in your poker accounts.

As far as im concerned your bankroll is 0

Re: What really is my bankroll?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But i dont mind using my student loan as a bankroll, im expected to spend that anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a piss-poor reason for drawing on a loan if you really don't need to borrow.

[/ QUOTE ]

yes that may be a piss poor reason, but theoretically, the loan could clealy be considered part of the bankroll. especially if its fairly small sized and a normal student loan interest rate (which isn't very large). then if OP is a winning player and will put in the necessary hours, and doesn't mind risk as an investor, then he should borrow at the low rate and play poker with will yield the winniner player with a larger expected return than not borrowing anything.

there's other assumptions in there but bottom line is if he's a winning player then taking out the loan is perfectly justified given above assumtions.

Barron

Re: What really is my bankroll?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But i dont mind using my student loan as a bankroll, im expected to spend that anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a piss-poor reason for drawing on a loan if you really don't need to borrow.

[/ QUOTE ]

yes that may be a piss poor reason, but theoretically, the loan could clealy be considered part of the bankroll. especially if its fairly small sized and a normal student loan interest rate (which isn't very large). then if OP is a winning player and will put in the necessary hours, and doesn't mind risk as an investor, then he should borrow at the low rate and play poker with will yield the winniner player with a larger expected return than not borrowing anything.

there's other assumptions in there but bottom line is if he's a winning player then taking out the loan is perfectly justified given above assumtions.

Barron

[/ QUOTE ]

This is nice theory, and works out well conceptually. But it's a very bad approach for the vast majority of individuals and a tremendously bad approach for an investment as volatile and risky as poker for most individuals. Granted, he'll not likely have a better time in life to borrow, and not likely have a better offer than the rate he's being offered now as a student (and I'm not in the UK, so I am extrapolating a bit here) -- but the risk of ruin is high enough and the cost of ruin is tremendous (he's got all his earning power ahead of him, but his credit rating is now taking baby steps), and this aspect should only be a smallish part of his consideration given his OP.

I know you're interested in (and planning on working with) structured financial products and have a very solid understanding of the financial aspects of the proposal; and crunching the raw numbers makes the prospect of borrowing at stable and below-market rates in order to raise capital to invest in slightly riskier but more profitable ventures seems like a no-brainer on paper with your assumptions; but there are a lot of extenuating factors that make this approach a bad approach in real life for an individual even though it looks good on paper. Even with the assumptions you laid out, given all the information OP provided in his post, I think drawing on his available student loans would be a very short-sighted and poorly-considered financial move. I also believe that anyone who turns to an online forum (focusing on poker of all things) for guidance on personal financial matters should never, ever, ever consider employing a leveraged strategy to maximize short-term returns.

Re: What really is my bankroll?
 

I'd agree with the thought that your poker bankroll is $0.

Take a $2K out of your savings and use that only for poker. Never take any more out for poker.

When you start winning, build your bankroll as well as taking some out to spend on...whatever.

I just used part of my bankroll to pay off my student loan. Best decision I ever made. I still have $2K in my bankroll...and since I'm between online 1/2SH & 2/4FR, and 3/6 B&M, I'm very comfortable.

Re: What really is my bankroll?
 

This is one of the most frightening posts I've ever read.

Start with a coupe hundred and play the micro limits. If you're good enough there you can add an extra hundred bucks a month to your spending money and be happy. I cannot believe someone jumping into poker would consider using student loan money or jumping right into such high stakes.

Does nobody else feel that the OP is asking for all sorts of trouble?

Re: What really is my bankroll?
 

[ QUOTE ]
The OP is asking for all sorts of trouble.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP.

There's poker bankroll, and then there's regular money. Never shall the twain meet.

I started my roll with $30 playing .05/.10. Never made another deposit.

Re: What really is my bankroll?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But i dont mind using my student loan as a bankroll, im expected to spend that anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a piss-poor reason for drawing on a loan if you really don't need to borrow.

[/ QUOTE ]

yes that may be a piss poor reason, but theoretically, the loan could clealy be considered part of the bankroll. especially if its fairly small sized and a normal student loan interest rate (which isn't very large). then if OP is a winning player and will put in the necessary hours, and doesn't mind risk as an investor, then he should borrow at the low rate and play poker with will yield the winniner player with a larger expected return than not borrowing anything.

there's other assumptions in there but bottom line is if he's a winning player then taking out the loan is perfectly justified given above assumtions.

Barron

[/ QUOTE ]

This is nice theory, and works out well conceptually. But it's a very bad approach for the vast majority of individuals and a tremendously bad approach for an investment as volatile and risky as poker for most individuals. Granted, he'll not likely have a better time in life to borrow, and not likely have a better offer than the rate he's being offered now as a student (and I'm not in the UK, so I am extrapolating a bit here) -- but the risk of ruin is high enough and the cost of ruin is tremendous (he's got all his earning power ahead of him, but his credit rating is now taking baby steps), and this aspect should only be a smallish part of his consideration given his OP.

I know you're interested in (and planning on working with) structured financial products and have a very solid understanding of the financial aspects of the proposal; and crunching the raw numbers makes the prospect of borrowing at stable and below-market rates in order to raise capital to invest in very very much riskier and probably more profitable ventures seems like a no-brainer on paper with your assumptions; but there are a lot of extenuating factors that make this approach a bad approach in real life for an individual even though it looks good on paper. Even with the assumptions you laid out, given all the information OP provided in his post, I think drawing on his available student loans would be a very short-sighted and poorly-considered financial move. I also believe that anyone who turns to an online forum (focusing on poker of all things) for guidance on personal financial matters should never, ever, ever consider employing a leveraged strategy to maximize short-term returns.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

notice how i never said it was a good idea for OP to take the loan. all i said is it could be PPPLLUUUUUUUUUUSSSSSSSSS EEEEEEEEEEEEEEVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV (sorry, just saw the bill fillmaff poker videos for the first time recently).

it would be a terrible idea for OP to do it at this moment in time. really bad decision b/c of the extenuating factors you mentioned etc. i probably should have included this statement to the OP in my first posts.

EDIT: i especially agree with your point about the additional likely negative tendencies of somebody who comes to an online poker forum for personal financial advice.

Barron

Re: What really is my bankroll?
 

I think you should set up some sound bankroll strategy to separate your real life money and your poker money. What I did was set up another student bank account (i'm in the uk too) and a neteller account (in usd). then i just transfer from neteller to the account.

so my bankroll is : sites + neteller + account.

pretty easy to keep track of.

Re: What really is my bankroll?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think you should set up some sound bankroll strategy to separate your real life money and your poker money. What I did was set up another student bank account (i'm in the uk too) and a neteller account (in usd). then i just transfer from neteller to the account.

so my bankroll is : sites + neteller + account.

pretty easy to keep track of.

[/ QUOTE ]

thats exactly how i do it.

however, i know if i need it there's money behind it

Barron

Re: What really is my bankroll?
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is one of the most frightening posts I've ever read.

Start with a coupe hundred and play the micro limits. If you're good enough there you can add an extra hundred bucks a month to your spending money and be happy. I cannot believe someone jumping into poker would consider using student loan money or jumping right into such high stakes.

Does nobody else feel that the OP is asking for all sorts of trouble?

[/ QUOTE ]


I think several of you misread his post - either that, or I did. Didn't he say he's already been playing for a while,and that he's up like 17K? And that the 4K of student loans he's thinking about as part of his bankroll is money that he WOULD have spent for school except he spent poker winnings instead?

Kane, I think your true bankroll, from what you said, is $5K - what you could lose without changing anything about your lifestyle or having complications. Now, since you don't have a ready source to replenish it if you happen to lose it, you should probably be more conservative than the 300 BB rule of thumb - I'd say 500 BB if you were playing limit.

Since you're playing NL and SNGs, you'll have to figure an equivalent to that and then probably pad it some more, since I would think those games have a higher variance than limit (although I have heard the SNGs have a lower variance, I'm not sure I buy that but I don't have much experience to contest it). I would play it safe and aim for the equivalent of a 600 BB limit bankroll.

Also, even though you do seem to have a very good record win-rate-wise, you have to be VERY sure that you are a winning player at whatever game you settle on - bankroll calculations are based on the assumption that you're beating the game, no bankroll is big enough for a losing player.

I think that means that you should move up very slowly, track your results, and play enough hands to get a statistically significant conclusion that you are still beating the game at the higher level. Then move up again. If you run into loses that hurt the bankroll, evenif it's just variance, move down and rebuild.

For example, if you follow my 600 BB suggestion, if you lose 200 BB of that, drop down and build the roll back to 600 before trying again.

Re: What really is my bankroll?
 

600bb for NL?? or 6 buy-ins at Party and most online capped games??? I believe 20 buy-ins ("2,000bb") is the generally accepted minimum BR requirement for NL.

Also, that NL has higher variance is another point of contention

Re: What really is my bankroll?
 

you could try just taking your $2k 'poker bankroll' and actually winning with it.

The reason you've gotten lots of sarcastic responses is because it's pretty silly to WANT to put your entire net-worth at risk just because you think you should have more balls.

If you are a winning player then you should be able to make the money to move up anyway.

In other words: at least TRY to have some responsibility.

Re: What really is my bankroll?
 

Risking your OWN MONEY at poker?

Theres a difference between having balls and being a [censored].

This post is blunt because if you lost it all we'd all probably have to hear about that "oh so bad beat" that took half your role. Then onto how the player sucked and you knew if you sold your house and played with that cash you could double up EASILY.

Sure thing, How about you take $30 and put the rest of that cash into a nice little savings account.

Then grow that $30 to $1000 within the month by bonus whoring and logging a few thousand hands.

You'd be lucky to start with $30, I started with $20 which i cashed out within 2 weeks of playing 0.02/.04.

I guess this will really see how wise you are.

Re: What really is my bankroll?
 

To that end....

I have a new car I could get several thousand for as well as a piano I could get a couple hundred for.
I guess I could also sell some random furniture and I could raid various 401k and IRA stuff.

If I lose all that I could sell my blood.

Does this all count as my total bankroll?

Re: What really is my bankroll?
 

[ QUOTE ]
To that end....

I have a new car I could get several thousand for as well as a piano I could get a couple hundred for.
I guess I could also sell some random furniture and I could raid various 401k and IRA stuff.

If I lose all that I could sell my blood.

Does this all count as my total bankroll?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep. Blood = life = poker.

Blood = poker.

Come on guys, it's so simple.

Re: What really is my bankroll?
 

thanks for all the replies.

i think i really do have a problem with spending money, i only really spend money going out. for example, if i think about buying a jumper for £30/$55 i usually wont, but i have no problem going out and spending £50/$90 regular getting off my face with my mates. i havent had a week spending less than $200 for god knows how long, with it usually being about $350.

i suppose i view money as just so variable, and understandly so i think, and especially after a few drinks, i have no problem blowing the money.

as for my bankroll, im surprised by those saying i have $0 bankroll. im just saying i honestly do think i am a very good online player (as we all do i suppose), ive been playing for now 4 years and last 15 months of serious regular profit, before that i played play money then break even, maybe slightly up at .50-1NL.

i agree with one of the above posters that my bankroll is about $5,000, as that is what i can comfortably lose.

i just feel its irrating that i really do feel i can win at higher limits, and cant due to my bankroll limitations, but i will never play above my bankroll, as otherwise one day i will go bust.

anyways, i think im not playing at the limits i was hoping i would be considering the amount ive won, no jokes ive barely ever played higher than the 200 sit downs, and you cant win 85 buy ins without being a good player. Ive had a lot of experience online and just think i can win at higher limits. So i think its time to really stop spending so much, stop spend so much of my time watching crap tv, and really try and either be: working for uni studies, playing online, or with my mates. thats what i do at the moment, it just feels when i look back on the day so many times ive done very little work, not enough time online, and a lot of time off my face/hungover in bed.

anyways, thanks for the replies, and if anyone feels like staking me for $20K, im here waiting [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: What really is my bankroll?
 

having just read ggman post, i feel like him. except for booze and procrastination hit my life and thats why im playing the 200NL and not the $2K NL.....

Re: What really is my bankroll?
 

I seriously doubt that you are as good a player as ggbman.


If you more seriously want to explore these ideas of falling into various temptations and all that stuff getting in your way then Barry Greenstein's Ace on the River might be a good read for you.
He talks A LOT about drinking, drugs, sports-betting, sex, etc etc being the downfall of MANY great players and about the discipline required to avoid burning through all your money on this stuff (is that is something that is a problem for you...which you already admitted it is).


You may get some other ideas from the psychology forum here.



However, even if it is valid...I think it's a REAL cop-out to just say "I could have been SOOOOO great if it weren't for my drinking, spending, etc etc."
Almost everyone who doesn't win says something like this.
You are either winning or you aren't.
you are either solid with your bankroll or you aren't.


As I've mentioned in previous threads. I think my poker-skills are pretty sucky....but I'm better off than many players because I just don't have the kind of discipline problems with bankroll that others do (and I actually don't think I'm as responsible with my bankroll as I should be).


Compare these two players:
Player 1: Great skills. Horrible bankroll management. This player is almost guaranteed to go broke (Stu Ungar)

Player 2: Mediocre skills. Very good bankroll management. This player will likely NEVER go broke. There's ALWAYS a lower limit that you can play to rebuild where you can win if you are losing. Even if you are barely a break-even player you can still get by at low-limits on rake-back and bonuses alone and there isn't much reason why you should bust out.



So imo you should always consider bankroll management to be PART of your poker skills. not something that is seperate from it.
you have card skills AT the table...and bankroll management skills AT and AWAY FROM the poker table.

Obviously your bankroll skills away from the table are kinda sucky.
In this thread you seemed to come dangerously close to also treading into sucks bankroll skills AT the poker-table (by playing at limits higher than your current bankroll would justify)


Perhaps one way to get motivated would be to think of yourself as a sucky poker player BECAUSE your bankroll management problems are so bad.
You will not be a good poker-player UNTIL you tackle these issues...and win enough on your own to move up to the stakes you want to play.


Just some thoughts. Hope they are not taken the wrong way.

Re: What really is my bankroll?
 

Wrong forum you [censored] nood. Try harder and maybe you wont receive two **

Re: What really is my bankroll?
 

[ QUOTE ]
To that end....

I have a new car I could get several thousand for as well as a piano I could get a couple hundred for.
I guess I could also sell some random furniture and I could raid various 401k and IRA stuff.

If I lose all that I could sell my blood.

Does this all count as my total bankroll?

[/ QUOTE ]


POTD! N1 Bob

Re: What really is my bankroll?
 

I think you need to do some growing up, first of all, your depending on your parents for everything and you think you can play at this great level. Well if you actually believed than I think you would have taken your 5k already and turned it into some insane figure at the 100/200NL. If you've managed to blow through 17k on drinks, uh wow.....maybe cut back on the drinking and next time you win something, keep it in your poker account so you will actually have a bank roll. First get a head on your shoulder, then worry about your classes, and lastly worry about poker. School > EV than poker.

Re: What really is my bankroll?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You spend $550 a month on just food and drinks? Cut it down to $300 and you have an extra $250 to play with.

[/ QUOTE ]
Depending on where you live, this can vary from difficult to impossible.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah 300 is the minimum drinking and eating for 1 week...never mind 1 month.

Re: What really is my bankroll?
 

If you think you can win at the higher limits, prove it by CHRUSHING THE LOWER LIMIT GAMES.

"I really think i can beat the higher stakes, just my bankroll wont let me play them" I hear this quite a bit and i think to myself "If you're ready for the higher stakes, surely you're chrushing the lower stakes... So why do you have a bankroll issue?"

it usually seems its a mix of:

Small sample size and kidding themselves they're chrushing it oh and that they have major leaks in their game which they won't try to correct untill they hit a big downswing.

I think you're kidding yourself about being ready for the higher stakes. Prove me wrong by logging the hands and EARNING the cash to move up.

Quit blowing cash on alcahol, you puke it up the next day and can't even remember if you had a good time.

i'm 18 if that makes a difference.

Re: What really is my bankroll?
 

I think your Poker Bankroll is only the money you have at the pokersites and you can afford to lose. I am in a quite similiar situation: I got around 11k in poker money, which I won from starting with 50$ and do not need for anything. I play the 400 NL Cashgames. In January I will get around 60k from my parents, money which is supposed to finance my living for the next 6 years at the university (In Germany you dont have to pay for university, so it's just appartment, food etc...).
I could use that money for playing heads-up against Mahatma for one day though [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: What really is my bankroll?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You spend $550 a month on just food and drinks? Cut it down to $300 and you have an extra $250 to play with.

[/ QUOTE ]
Depending on where you live, this can vary from difficult to impossible.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah 300 is the minimum drinking and eating for 1 week...never mind 1 month.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its called a loaf of bread and a pound of turkey.

300 the minimum my fat, disgusting, hairy, pimply ass. Peoples' lack of money management skills constantly surprises me.

Re: What really is my bankroll?
 

$42/day for food/drink every freaking day strikes me as pretty high no matter where you live.

Then again, NBA and MLB players get something like $150-$200/day cash per-diem for road-trips I think (as if they couldn't cover it on their own).


If you're a business-person eating-out and eating out every day (and meeting clients, etc) then obviously you would need even more than that amount.

but if you live at home and have a fairly normal job and normal expenses then I just don't see why you would need that much.

Re: What really is my bankroll?
 

[ QUOTE ]
but if you live at home and have a fairly normal job and normal expenses then I just don't see why you would need that much.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. $300/month is easy if you aren't eating out too much. One thing that I've discovered since I started eating healthy 3 months ago is that it's actually cheaper to do so. I eat 5-6 meals/day (including meal replacements), and I still spend under $300/month. $300/week is just outrageous.

PSA for UK Students
 

And a FYI for all US / other posters:

Taking a student Loan is +EV.

Student loans company charges 3.2% interest this year - slc.co.uk

ING Direct pay 4.5% interest from January, others may well pay more.

This results in a net +1.3% growth on someone else's money!


Even if you are ungodly rich and have no need for a student loan, it pays to take as much as you can get and drop it straight into a good savings account.

If you are sure you will not need the money, much higher rates of growth can be obtained, look into ISAs and other guaranteed return savings accounts. I am no expert on these things, but I believe stock market linked savings accounts can yeild 10% or so on a 5-year term.

dave.

Re: PSA for UK Students
 

[ QUOTE ]
Taking a student Loan is +EV.

Student loans company charges 3.2% interest this year - slc.co.uk

ING Direct pay 4.5% interest from January, others may well pay more.

This results in a net +1.3% growth on someone else's money!


[/ QUOTE ]

You did not allow for taxes.

Re: PSA for UK Students
 

[ QUOTE ]
And a FYI for all US / other posters:

Taking a student Loan is +EV if the purpose is to arbitrage interest rates by investing in an extremely low risk vehicle like insured deposits at a fixed rate from financially solid institutions, and provided the individual has the neceesary free cash flow to make the required period payments on the loan while allowing the untouched capital to earn interest, but not for use as a poker bankroll.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP.