30/60 Dealing with super-aggros
 

Villain is 45/40 over 70 hands and very aggressive postflop. It is VERY likely that he is capable of bluffcheck-raising me with air on the turn, but I dont know it for sure and dont know how often he would do this.

Party Poker 30/60 Hold'em (7 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB caps</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (8 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (5 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks.

River: (5 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 7 BB

I think not betting the turn is bad, but I cant fold to a CR so I took the easy way out. I just didnt have enough info on him.
It´s really unlikely he is just giving up on the turn here.

Re: 30/60 Dealing with super-aggros
 

Seems like the perfect way to handle someone that aggressive. But I am a bit weak so...

Re: 30/60 Dealing with super-aggros
 

I'd play it the same versus a guy this aggro.

Re: 30/60 Dealing with super-aggros
 

I think I like your line with A2-AT.

However, I think AK is a little too strong to check the turn. I think he checkraises this turn with an Ace pretty frequently, so your bad aces might be behind, but your good aces can stand the extra action.

Re: 30/60 Dealing with super-aggros
 

poldi, are you sk.storm? I know ive seen that pic somewhere before. Storm is what jumped to my head but i cant remember exactly what it was.

Re: 30/60 Dealing with super-aggros
 

This guy is always checkraising on that turn given the action so far, whether he has a hand or not. So whether or not to bet the turn and call down is really just a matter of how much equity AK has against his range. I don't know what he caps preflop with in a blind battle, but I suspect AK is ahead often enough to make betting/calling down correct.

Re: 30/60 Dealing with super-aggros
 

[ QUOTE ]
This guy is always checkraising on that turn given the action so far, whether he has a hand or not. So whether or not to bet the turn and call down is really just a matter of how much equity AK has against his range. I don't know what he caps preflop with in a blind battle, but I suspect AK is ahead often enough to make betting/calling down correct.

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My thinking is similar to yours and Spydog. Against most LAGs, this is a very good check the turn/call the river situation, but against a super-LAG you might well have sufficient equity to bet the turn here.

However, given that he'd probably cap preflop with any pocket and any ace, you have to think you're ahead 50% of the time to make this bet -- I don't think it's THAT good, so . . . a turn check is probably better. And lower variance, obviously.

Close, though.

Here's an annoying question -- against this individual, is a bet/3-bet line best? Betting the turn and calling down his inevitable raise puts in 3 bets. Betting/3-betting also puts in 3 bets, and has a chance of folding a small pocket.

??

Re: 30/60 Dealing with super-aggros
 

[ QUOTE ]
Here's an annoying question -- against this individual, is a bet/3-bet line best? Betting the turn and calling down his inevitable raise puts in 3 bets. Betting/3-betting also puts in 3 bets, and has a chance of folding a small pocket.

??

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I dont think trying to push players like this off any hand is the way to go. I´d be scared that he caps with a worse hand or donks the river and I dont know what to do. I think you must get to Showdown here and dont give him any opportunity to push you off your hand.

Re: 30/60 Dealing with super-aggros
 

[ QUOTE ]
poldi, are you sk.storm? I know ive seen that pic somewhere before. Storm is what jumped to my head but i cant remember exactly what it was.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I am SK.sTOrM. Do you play WC3?

Re: 30/60 Dealing with super-aggros
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Here's an annoying question -- against this individual, is a bet/3-bet line best? Betting the turn and calling down his inevitable raise puts in 3 bets. Betting/3-betting also puts in 3 bets, and has a chance of folding a small pocket.

??

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont think trying to push players like this off any hand is the way to go. I´d be scared that he caps with a worse hand or donks the river and I dont know what to do. I think you must get to Showdown here and dont give him any opportunity to push you off your hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dunno. I doubt he's capping the turn as a bluff. If he donks the river, yeah it's annoying, but my guess is that if you ran the numbers you'd find that if there's even a 15% chance you run him off of a small pocket or get him to fold a weak ace (which still has a 3-outer, or a chance to chop with you) on the turn, the bet/3-bet line is best.

Scarier, certainly -- but I think it HAS to be better than just calling the checkraise.

If you're that insistent about seeing a showdown, then just use the line you did.

Re: 30/60 Dealing with super-aggros
 

Your line looks good. I'd start making exceptions against the type of guy who's capping any hand he raises that's 3 bet. You need to be ahead much more often than 50% to bet unless he's check-raising with 100% of his range range.

Re: 30/60 Dealing with super-aggros
 

[ QUOTE ]
I dunno. I doubt he's capping the turn as a bluff. If he donks the river, yeah it's annoying, but my guess is that if you ran the numbers you'd find that if there's even a 15% chance you run him off of a small pocket or get him to fold a weak ace (which still has a 3-outer, or a chance to chop with you) on the turn, the bet/3-bet line is best.


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45/40 and very aggro postflop is lunatic terriory. He's never folding a better hand to a turn 3-bet, and is easily capable of capping a worse A, any draw, or maybe even a random 6-outer. Guys like this are nuts enough that you have to you have to show your hand down, even if he caps you on the turn. Also, I'm inclined to believe that his preflop capping range here is exactly the same as his preflop opening range.

Just to give you an example of how aggro these types can get:

6-handed 30.

I open A5o in the sb, guy with those type stats calls.

Flop: 2 3 7 rainbow.

I bet, he calls.

Turn: 2 3 7 7.

I screwplay, he 3-bets, I cap (for value).

River was a J, I check, he bets, I call, and he turns over 84o.


On the particular board in the OP's hand, 3 bets total on the turn/river is probably just about right for AK, and there's a decent chance that 3-betting the turn will mean either 5 bets go in, or you make a bad fold.

Re: 30/60 Dealing with super-aggros
 

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...unless he's check-raising with 100% of his range

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He is.

Re: 30/60 Dealing with super-aggros
 

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...unless he's check-raising with 100% of his range

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He is.

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In that case, this is just a "what is villain's range" question.

Re: 30/60 Dealing with super-aggros
 

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...unless he's check-raising with 100% of his range

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He is.

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In that case, this is just a "what is villain's range" question.

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um...

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This guy is always checkraising on that turn given the action so far, whether he has a hand or not. So whether or not to bet the turn and call down is really just a matter of how much equity AK has against his range.

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Re: 30/60 Dealing with super-aggros
 

I hope I'm allowed to rehash [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] I certainly can't pull a hand range for villain out of my ass without more information. If he's liberal then bet. If his range shrinks exponentially as the bets go up (it does for some LAGs) then it's closer, but most likely still a bet.

Re: 30/60 Dealing with super-aggros
 

Posting blind.

I would play it exactly the same way.

Results
 

I agree with the consensus that a bet is neccessary when I know pretty surely that my Hand might still be ahead to his range even if I have to call down to his CR on the turn.
I didnt know enough so the check is probably fine.

Villain showed 86o and MHING. FWIW, I think he was going for the CR on the turn and if this same hand would happen again vs him with my new info I´d surely bet the turn and calldown from then on. But up to this point this line was likely the best because I didnt have enough info.

Re: 30/60 Dealing with super-aggros
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, I am SK.sTOrM. Do you play WC3?

[/ QUOTE ]

I knew Sk.Tom was an uber gosu WC3 player!

I harbor a small DoTA addiction still -.-

Re: Results
 

Not to be results oriented, but the results suggested that a bet/3-bet the turn line would have saved your ass and not let him hit his 6-outer.

Re: Results
 

[ QUOTE ]
Not to be results oriented, but the results suggested that a bet/3-bet the turn line would have saved your ass and not let him hit his 6-outer.

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Yeah I didnt ever see him folding, I thought he might even cap me with a worse hand. But now that I see he really played 86o that way, I doubt he would have showed it down against a turn 3bet.
On the other side, you cant be sure that someone is laying it down when he gives so much unwarranted action so far.
I´m very interested in what would have happened. We ll never know..

Re: 30/60 Dealing with super-aggros
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yes, I am SK.sTOrM. Do you play WC3?

[/ QUOTE ]

I knew Sk.Tom was an uber gosu WC3 player!

I harbor a small DoTA addiction still -.-

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
Yeah, DotA was great. My clanmates played it all the time.

Re: 30/60 Dealing with super-aggros
 

I dont think you should question your turn play here at all. I think it is 100% correct - I just wrote a magazine submission that speaks of this situation and my thesis is that a check-behind is a good play that is underused.

Re: Results
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Not to be results oriented, but the results suggested that a bet/3-bet the turn line would have saved your ass and not let him hit his 6-outer.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I didnt ever see him folding, I thought he might even cap me with a worse hand. But now that I see he really played 86o that way, I doubt he would have showed it down against a turn 3bet.
On the other side, you cant be sure that someone is laying it down when he gives so much unwarranted action so far.
I´m very interested in what would have happened. We ll never know..

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Maybe it wouldn't be optimal against someone THIS laggy, but the more I think about it the more I like the bet/3-bet line, especially if I haven't been noticed making any big bluffs. I think rory actually posted a thread a few months ago where he suggested such a line.