TT river decision..
 

I just played the following hand at 1/2 5 max.
The players are loose and passive.

I have T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] UTG.

Raise, get 2 coldcallers, plus the big blind.

Flop 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

A great flop for me.
I bet , Co and button call, the bb folds.

Turn K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Not exactly what I wanted to see but I think i still have the best hand a good part of the time and can still value bet. Maybe fold to a raise since they are passive and dont usually bluff.

I bet and both call.

River: A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

D'oh.

Your move here?

Re: TT river decision..
 

bet and fold to a raise

Re: TT river decision..
 

check; if CO bets and button calls, fold. If CO bets and button folds, call. If CO checks and button bets, consider the likelihood of CO overcalling and having you beaten. Call or fold depending on that read.

I suppose a bet-fold line is sensible too. In fact, probably more sensible than the crap above. So, c/c, c/f or bet-fold.

Re: TT river decision..
 

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bet and fold to a raise

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Re: TT river decision..
 

Without any real reads this is nearly impossible.

Peter is probably closer to the mark. You'll feel like a real dummy if you get two calls and lose, whereas if you check and CO bets you can safely fold if faced with over-calling or two-cold. It might even check through.

I think it's silly to invest a bet with no information vs. obtaining the information and then deciding.

Re: TT river decision..
 

I'm with miles here. They'll be on a straight draw, have a pair often enough for us to value bet. If they raise we must fold of course.

Re: TT river decision..
 

You get no value out of straight draws.

Re: TT river decision..
 

I'm checking and calling one bet, and folding if I have to overcall. I don't like bet/folding here because you also will get called by hands that beat your too as a naked ace will be scared of heart. I don't want to bet and get called in two places as we know that we are very beat. Check/calling 1 and check/folding two allows us to possibly have a idiot think that he is value betting a worse hand, defeats any possible bluff/raises, and lets one of the villians try a bluff that only costs us one bet. We know that if we overcall that we are screwed, and we also save a bet here a fair amount too

Re: TT river decision..
 

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I'm checking and calling one bet, and folding if I have to overcall. I don't like bet/folding here because you also will get called by hands that beat your too as a naked ace will be scared of heart. I don't want to bet and get called in two places as we know that we are very beat. Check/calling 1 and check/folding two allows us to possibly have a idiot think that he is value betting a worse hand, defeats any possible bluff/raises, and lets one of the villians try a bluff that only costs us one bet. We know that if we overcall that we are screwed, and we also save a bet here a fair amount too

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I don't see how an overcall changes much here. All the call means is that he has some sort of pair.

Re: TT river decision..
 

probably a check/fold. not going to get a better hand to fold.

Re: TT river decision..
 

if we have to overcall, we are screwed, one of the other villians will have the better hand. We have to beat two players on a crappy board as opposed to having to beat one player if its HU. I don't understand how you aren't seeing that fact. overcalling here sucks

Re: TT river decision..
 

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if we have to overcall, we are screwed, one of the other villians will have the better hand. We have to beat two players on a crappy board as opposed to having to beat one player if its HU. I don't understand how you aren't seeing that fact. overcalling here sucks

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What I'm saying is that the person we're much more of afraid of here is the bettor. The caller could have a whole sleuth of hands and like I said, basically any pair.

Re: TT river decision..
 

The more I think about this hand the more I like a river check. I think if we check and CO bets we can be pretty certain he isn't betting a 9 there and can fold, regardless of what button does. If it goes check,check, bet by button then I think we can call as he may be betting a weaker hand here, or trying a last-ditch bluff attempt.

Re: TT river decision..
 

The bettor, though, can't have a whole slueth of hands if he's truly passive and betting in to two players on a 3-flush, AK high board. Though the caller may have a decently wide range here, it still chips at our equity.

edited: worst run on ever

Re: TT river decision..
 

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The bettor, though, can't have a whole slueth of hands if he's truly passive and betting in to two players on a 3-flush, AK high board. Though the caller may have a decently wide range here, it still chips at our equity.

edited: worst run on ever

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Yeah, that's why I'm liking the line I posted above.

Re: TT river decision..
 

the benefit of checking is that you can make a good fold when someone bets. the drawback to checking is that you never get value from any 6, 8, 9, 22, 33, 44, 55, or 77, because they will not bet these hands when you check.

the reason you would check and fold here is because the players are good enough that you know they would only call with hands on the flop and turn that now have you beaten a large percentage of the time, and that these players are good enough that you know they will not call with 3rd/4th/5th pair here now that the A and K have fallen. these players do not fit this description.

Re: TT river decision..
 

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the benefit of checking is that you can make a good fold when someone bets. the drawback to checking is that you never get value from any 6, 8, 9, 22, 33, 44, 55, or 77, because they will not bet these hands when you check.

the reason you would check and fold here is because the players are good enough that you know they would only call with hands on the flop and turn that now have you beaten a large percentage of the time, and that these players are good enough that you know they will not call with 3rd/4th/5th pair here now that the A and K have fallen. these players do not fit this description.

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I don't think they have to think that hard to check-through with a pair of 8s when there is a K, an A, and a 3-flush on the board.

Re: TT river decision..
 

They may be loose passive, but that doesn't mean they're 90/2 guys. They called two cold preflop. A good percentage of their 3rd-5th pair hands are now two pair hands with the presence of the ace and king.

Loose and passive != total river donkey.

Re: TT river decision..
 

Check-fold.