How do you make money in SSNL?
 

Clearly, an accurate answer is my opponents making mistakes. What is a more specific answer?

My opponents general inability to lay down one pair hands?
My opponents loose preflop play?
My superior postflop play?
My opponents weak hand reading?
My ability to bluff?
ETC.

More than one may apply! Thank you.

Re: How do you make money in SSNL?
 

Pushing small edges for maximum profit. Controlling the pot and seeing a cheap showdown when you are unsure of the strengh of your had. Inflating the pot when you have a great hand.

Re: How do you make money in SSNL?
 

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My ability to bluff?


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Imagine that isn't an option down here and I think you'd be better off. Value bets are the way to go.

Re: How do you make money in SSNL?
 

There are plenty of spots to profitably bluff in SSNL.

Re: How do you make money in SSNL?
 

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There are plenty of spots to profitably bluff in SSNL.

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I definitely agree with you, if you can determine who you can bluff and who you can't then by all means bluff.

Re: How do you make money in SSNL?
 

At these levels most of the time it's all about position and having better cards than your opponents. Many times folding in the right spot saves you more money then pushing with the nuts wins for you.

Value betting is key.

Avoid FPS.

Don't fall in love with overpairs and TPTK. They are worth showing down, but usually not worth throwing your stack in the middle.

Re: How do you make money in SSNL?
 

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Pushing small edges for maximum profit....

[/ QUOTE ]

She asked about making money, not how to go broke.

Re: How do you make money in SSNL?
 

I really don't think pushing small edges for maximum profit is what makes the money at SSNL. Sure, it may increase your overall profit, but it drastically increases your variance. The way to make money is to control pot size based on your opponent and force them to make incorrect plays, according to the fundamental theorem of poker.

Also, bluffing *can* be done at SSNL. It just has to be the right game and players, otherwise you'll get called down (in which case, refer to other posts about value bets).

Re: How do you make money in SSNL?
 

[ QUOTE ]
At these levels most of the time it's all about position and having better cards than your opponents. Many times folding in the right spot saves you more money then pushing with the nuts wins for you.

Value betting is key.

Avoid FPS

Don't fall in love with overpairs and TPTK. They are worth showing down, but usually not worth throwing your stack in the middle.

[/ QUOTE ]
ABC poker and paying attention seems to do the trick at these levels for me. I get in trouble when I get too fancy.

Re: How do you make money in SSNL?
 

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At these levels most of the time it's all about position and having better cards than your opponents.

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This is spot on. Having position saves and makes big turn and river bets.

Re: How do you make money in SSNL?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Clearly, an accurate answer is my opponents making mistakes. What is a more specific answer?

My opponents general inability to lay down one pair hands?
My opponents loose preflop play?
My superior postflop play?
My opponents weak hand reading?
My ability to bluff?
ETC.

More than one may apply! Thank you.

[/ QUOTE ]

By sending unsolicited PM's offering akebackray until you get two *'s under your name.

Re: How do you make money in SSNL?
 

I have sent solicited RB messages, but I do not believe I have sent any unsolicited ones. I may be mistaken on that front, but if so it was by accident. I am by no means a spammer. If it was to you that this happened, I apologize.

Re: How do you make money in SSNL?
 

All the usual stuff is true: bluff (on flop, maybe on turn), get into pots against the weak opponents, put opponents on ranges, and try to ascertain if there is logic from their preflopping betting with their betting on the board.

But imho, the main way you make is money by picking up small pots here and there, making laydowns, and then . . . getting all your chips in on a monster hand. I get a monster hand (nut flush, boat, etc) let's say once an hour in a multiway pot - that is when you want to get paid off big.

So . . . an hour of my playing might look like this:

picked up small pot
folded on flop
folded on turn
bluffed and picked up a small pot
folded on flop
bluffed the river and picked up small pot
stole some blinds
so far, up 2 BBs
then . . . won a massive pot with monster for 50 BBs

rinse, repeat for the next hour

Re: How do you make money in SSNL?
 

[ QUOTE ]
So . . . an hour of my playing might look like this:

picked up small pot
folded on flop
folded on turn
bluffed and picked up a small pot
folded on flop
bluffed the river and picked up small pot
stole some blinds
so far, up 2 BBs
then . . . won a massive pot with monster for 50 BBs

rinse, repeat for the next hour

[/ QUOTE ]

Where do I sign up for the never lose a hand program?

I have the most recent version of pattern mapper, but that usually only guarantees a 80% win rate [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: How do you make money in SSNL?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So . . . an hour of my playing might look like this:

picked up small pot
folded on flop
folded on turn
bluffed and picked up a small pot
folded on flop
bluffed the river and picked up small pot
stole some blinds
so far, up 2 BBs
then . . . won a massive pot with monster for 50 BBs

rinse, repeat for the next hour

[/ QUOTE ]

Where do I sign up for the never lose a hand program?

I have the most recent version of pattern mapper, but that usually only guarantees a 80% win rate [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Oops, forgot to add the 2nd hour:

Raise 5xBB in CO with AA, flop is A58; I raise the flop, 5 callers, turn is 2, I raise the turn, 5 callers, river is 4, I push flop, 5 callers, Button with J3 wins with straight

Next hand with KK UTG, I raise 3xBB, SB reraises me, I push, he shows Q3 and wins with a Q on flop, 3 on river

Re: How do you make money in SSNL?
 

I knew it! There's always some catch with these things. I need to learn to read the fine print........

Re: How do you make money in SSNL?
 

I think about this a lot, but more towards the home games I play that are SSNL. What is it that separates me from John Q. FIsh? In a game that is largely card dependent (debatable), where is my edge? Ive narrowed it down to my superior hand selection and superior ability to read and analyze the board versus said fish. We, here at 2p2, know when to pick and chose our fights, what to go to war with and what to say goodbye to. We know what situations are profitable versus which ones are negative EV. We avoid common traps such as min betting and slowplaying, and have the ability to lay it down when we are beat. In general, a winning SSNL'er v. John Q. Fish has a better knowledge of the game, and uses his small advantages to exploit large holes in the games of others.

Re: How do you make money in SSNL?
 

How do i make money, Position, u guys check i bet the pot no matter what. Sometimes the little mousey will check raise me thats fine i will fold and let it go. The other 20 times i take the pot covers that and then some....

Re: How do you make money in SSNL?
 

in rasied pots, making them bet/call on the turn/river with worse hands.

Re: How do you make money in SSNL?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
At these levels most of the time it's all about position and having better cards than your opponents. Many times folding in the right spot saves you more money then pushing with the nuts wins for you.

Value betting is key.

Avoid FPS

Don't fall in love with overpairs and TPTK. They are worth showing down, but usually not worth throwing your stack in the middle.

[/ QUOTE ]
ABC poker and paying attention seems to do the trick at these levels for me. I get in trouble when I get too fancy.

[/ QUOTE ]
Oh yeah, and good table selection. I have been more diligent about proper table selection and have seen a big difference right away.

Re: How do you make money in SSNL?
 

Most important are of course my opponents mistakes. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]


I do a lot of position raising. So far about half of my profite has been from the button(in 6 max NL), so i do a lot of stealing there(Raise preflop, win pot with cbet on the flop.)

Looking at my tiny pockertracker data i find:
I loose money on my no-pair hands, and 1 pair hands, and win money on all others, so that my opponents are not able to lay down TP or similar hands is helping a lot.

Re: How do you make money in SSNL?
 

sucky opponents and the best hand

Re: How do you make money in SSNL?
 

I would say dont slowplay big pairs pf (AA,KK,QQ) be prepared to get all in pf with Aces and Kings- u will see all sorts of weird all ins from people.

If you flop a set or real strong hand- play it fast and be willing to reraise and get all all in when you are big favourite.

I agree with the no FPS arguement- just play the cards, these donks wont realise you havent played a hand for 20 hands and when you raise you stack their QT with your AA!

Good luck
Ric.

Re: How do you make money in SSNL?
 

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Ive narrowed it down to my superior hand selection

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I've recently changed my hand selection. I'm going for monster hands more often now, since TPTK is too fragile. If I pot TPTK, I usually get called to the river by someone with a set -- or not called at all. To me, this means suited connectors go way up in value, and offsuit broadways (even KQ and AQ) drop.

This is a recent change, so maybe I haven't yet learned to maximize profit from KQ and AQ. But 87s and the like are doing really well for me.

[ QUOTE ]
and superior ability to read and analyze the board versus said fish.

[/ QUOTE ]

My current hand-reading ability is "fold to a raise". I tailor my betting to my opponent, but I haven't had much luck putting them on hands. I'm still making some money, so maybe this is where I look to improve next.

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We avoid common traps such as min betting and slowplaying

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I think these are good sources of profit. They minbet, letting me make my draws. They minbet, letting me call down cheaply in WA/WB situations. They slowplay, letting me improve from 7-high to a BD str8 or flush.

So, we profit because:
1) we bet well. When we're ahead, we make them pay.
2) we know pot odds, and can evaluate when a draw will be profitable
3) we are mindful of position, using late position to chase out weak hands, bluff, steal pots, and make free card plays
4) we don't call down too liberally

Re: How do you make money in SSNL?
 

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My opponents general inability to acknowledge the existence of hands better than their own.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: How do you make money in SSNL?
 

At party x-skin 25 nl games, just bully them. At stars 100 nl games with a few fish at the table, you have to use less bullying and more value betting, I think.

Basically you have to find out what your opponents mistakes will be, and tailor each action in each hand towards attacking the mistake that will be most lucrative*most prevalent on a given board texture.

Simple stuff, eh? Wish I could do it. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: How do you make money in SSNL?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Pushing small edges for maximum profit....

[/ QUOTE ]

She asked about making money, not how to go broke.

[/ QUOTE ]

your opinion and his depend on:

how accurately you can assess those small edges, bankroll size, risk tolerance.

Re: How do you make money in SSNL?
 

i didnt read this thread but the answer is:

people dont fold

Re: How do you make money in SSNL?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Pushing small edges for maximum profit.

[/ QUOTE ]

ok i lied i read this and this is not how you make money in ssnl

Re: How do you make money in SSNL?
 

An analogy would be to see yourself as a spider patiently waiting for something to fall into your trap.
You use your patience to wait for high quality hands. When you hit the nuts,, and you have an opponent who is happy with their hand, you try to maximize your lkely return.
That's the upside.
Many times, lady luck neither smiles nor frowns on us. She simply ignores us. Here discipline to wait it out, and more importantly discipline to not lose a lot of money on second best hands because you have grown impatient , is what earns you your pay check. Losing a lot less than the next guy, when the cards go against you, is just as important as winning a lot when the cards are hot.

Re: How do you make money : benchmarks for you
 

My worst run of cards was 0 for 80 hands at a 6 person table. I never hit a thing.
A really hot session sees me winning 30% of hands dealt, not just played , for about an hour. Oddly enough, these statistics have almost no correlation with the amount of money won or lost. I've won 30% of hands and been about even, and other times my $25 original stake now sits at $120. The difference is "lady luck" in my opinion. Your opponents must be dealt good second best hands in order for your top hands to make any money. We have all won $1.20 with a full boat on the flop, because nobody else got anything.
I hope this helps.

Re: How do you make money in SSNL?
 

I am 95% certain that you have those two confused. At stars $100 you should bully (in the right spots) and party $25 you should just value bet (they are all loose callers).

Re: How do you make money in SSNL?
 

I'm currently playing in a place with some amazing crap players, and *very* high "see flop %" rate. In those situations, pair hands (AQ, JJ) are toilet paper. When 7 guys see the flop, more often than not, a pair won't stand up.

In a 30% flop % game, the standard 3x-4x+limpers bb raise is adequate, but not in uber-loose games. Consider raising your JJ/QQ to 6x-8x+limpers when there's limpers behind you. If you just take the blinds, fine. Those hands aren't where the $ comes from. At a 4x raise, you'll get 4-5 callers, and be in a very akward position when the flop comes.

The $ at very low stakes is in doubling up on AA/KK, and on monster hands. Screw AJ. Hello 34s.

Straights and flushes are where it's at. You get odds to make your draws profitable 70% of the time, and sometimes even correct odds to stick around with your bottom pair, ace kicker.

Implied odds for flushes are much better, since a lot of players don't respect the suits on the board, and a lot of players simply can't see straight and flush possibilities.

If you can put someone on anything more then TPTK, and you know you have them beat, push. Two pair will ALWAYS look you up in a $10 game.

Hope that helps.

Re: How do you make money in SSNL?
 

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I haven't had much luck putting them on hands.


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I've had trouble reading bad players. Good players, though, play well, and unless they're excellent players, they play predictably. Therefore, if you know what they know in terms of game theory, their plays become pretty transparent. Additionally, with those guys, you make your bets in such a manner as to clearly communicate to them what your hand is, and have some idea of how they're going to react to that.

It comes with time.

Apparently if you pay attention to the game you learn how the fish play too, but... well... I've always been a big fan of multitabling so I don't have a damn clue. I just know that they call a lot with "surprise" holdings.

--Dave.

Re: How do you make money in SSNL?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

My opponents general inability to acknowledge the existence of hands better than their own.

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Or opponents better than themselves, or the nature of gambling in general, etc. etc.

Re: How do you make money in SSNL?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I am 95% certain that you have those two confused. At stars $100 you should bully (in the right spots) and party $25 you should just value bet (they are all loose callers).

[/ QUOTE ]

Variance is a bitch eh? [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

I said party x-skins at the $25 game, not the party $25 game. Before EB split (I haven't played them since) my opinion is that the x-skins were full of weak-tighties in the $25 game.

When I tried to play in the paradise 100 game or stars 100 game, coming from the x-skin 25's, I found that because I was being called more, I was losing money, and therefore had to adjust to a value-betting strategy.

--Dave.

Re: How do you make money in SSNL?
 

I think to win at these stakes you should just start with a nut peddling strategy and slowly build up the position bluffing/valuebetting depending on how tight/loose your opponents are.

Re: How do you make money in SSNL?
 

Most of the opponents I find at the 25NL are quite passive. They are happy to call your bets with any piece of the board, but when they reraise you they generally have something. Then you need to figure out which ones show this aggression with TPTK and which only show it with 2 pair or better.

But generally just try and stay patient, wait until you get a big hand and then value bet, value bet and value bet some more.