Anything wrong here?
 

Villain had only played a couple of hands and I had no reads or stats on him.

Party Poker 1.00/2.00 Hold'em <font color="#0000FF">(6 handed)</font> link

Preflop: Hero is CO with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 folds</font>, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (6.00 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB calls, BB folds.

Turn: (4.00 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks. (I don't like betting here against unknown villains)

River: (4.00 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB 3-bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 10.00 BB.

Re: Anything wrong here?
 

Looks good to me, i was wondering about the turn bet and i think we have marginal equity and getting raised sucks.

As we've no reads its impossible to say if he'll fold the turn or not. He'd have to do it 30%+ if we're behind i believe so it looks good.

Re: Anything wrong here?
 

I'm bet/folding this turn and checking behind UI. If I improve then I bet the river.

Re: Anything wrong here?
 

i like bet-folding to a turn c/r.

On the river it looks fine given your line. If you'd raised the turn SB may have c/c perhaps, looks like A2 just made 2 pair, or slowplayed 87 from the turn. I imagine you're toast, but calling 1 more with TPTK HU, getting 9-1 (notwithstanding the river raise)...seems ok.

Re: Anything wrong here?
 

My standard line here would be bet/bet/check (unimproved) folding to any aggression.

As an A fell on the river i would go bet/bet/bet..if he check raised the river bet i would probably just call.

If he donk bet the river i would play it the same as you.

Hope that made sense..

Re: Anything wrong here?
 

I think that I bet the turn here. You have enough fold equity against more players to make it profitable. I check behind UI on the river.

When the A hits here, I play the same but I don't know what to do when he 3bets. Is there any chance that we win this. Is it high enough to crying call? I don't know. Without reads I call but it is close. I would expect to see AT or A9 here almost always.

Re: Anything wrong here?
 

HU with position I bet the turn here. I would do this to (hopefully) get a free showdown UI and possibly win the pot right there. I think on the river I'd play it the same.

Re: Anything wrong here?
 

Is betting the turn +EV though?

Whats your reasoning?

How many outs are all of the "turn betters" giving us?
Are we ahead of drawing?
is our opponent folding?
What is our equity?


i think we miss the river and are behind to often to bet the turn.

Also IF WE BET AND HE RAISES we're getting 7:1 and with 6 outs we can call.

I dont like the turn bet, Please argue your point though - id like a conclusion here [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Anything wrong here?
 

[ QUOTE ]
How many outs are all of the "turn betters" giving us?



[/ QUOTE ]

I'd say 4.5.

[ QUOTE ]
Are we ahead of drawing?


[/ QUOTE ]

What do you mean by this?

[ QUOTE ]
is our opponent folding?


[/ QUOTE ]

That's the question. Of course a read would help here but I think that many players would fold for a turn bet that called the flop with as much as second pair. Now, that won't happen the majority of the time with most players but I think it happens often enough to make this play the right one also considering you have outs if you're behind. You could also be ahead to somebody with overcards (or even an Ace overcard that had a bd draw on the flop). I think this is a good time for a semi-bluff with a possibility that you've got the best hand a small percentage of the time. Granted, a pot this small isn't as valuable a time to semi-bluff but I think you've got to be willing to make these plays at six max. Also, by checking you're inviting even the most passive players to bet into you with weak holdings on the river.

Re: Anything wrong here?
 

I bet fold this turn. There is a good chance you are ahead here, people are going to peel that flop with total crap.

I am undecided on your river play. it is unclear to me if we're ahead 10% of the time after he 3bets.

Re: Anything wrong here?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I bet fold this turn. There is a good chance you are ahead here, people are going to peel that flop with total crap.

I am undecided on your river play. it is unclear to me if we're ahead 10% of the time after he 3bets.

[/ QUOTE ]
we aren't, but i think it's worth paying off to see what he played like this.

Re: Anything wrong here?
 

[ QUOTE ]
we aren't, but i think it's worth paying off to see what he played like this.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is about the most overrated thing on this board, the whole paying off for info thing. the player pool is so big that if the EV of this is even -.2bb I don't think we should expect to ever make it up based on a read.

Re: Anything wrong here?
 

that's where we disagree - i will gladly spend a fraction of a big bet for this information.

plus this guy is an unknown and he has now shown an aggressive move - it is more likely that this player is overaggressive simply based on this. we really have no idea how often we're good here, but calling can not be very bad.

Re: Anything wrong here?
 

"i will gladly spend a fraction of a big bet for this information."

considering my winrate is around .02BB/hand, -.2/bb seems like a big ass hole to dig out of..

Re: Anything wrong here?
 

I think you should have bet the turn. If you had and he called you can be fairly certain he has a str8 draw or a pair. If villan then bets the river you call and save 1 bet, if villan check raises the river you can call and you are even with the line taken (or fold but I don't like that much as he may bluff into your agressiveness)

so even if my assumption that villan bets the river after your turn bet only happens 10% of the time you still save .1 bet when you lose this - so overall slightly +EV over line taken.

There is the down side if you don't improve on the river but I think it evens out with when you win on the turn if villan folds bottom pair and when you improve to the nut str8.

Once you have a read on a specific villan this would change of course

Re: Anything wrong here?
 

depends you may lose .2 bb immediately but if the info is worth anything you should save or make additional fractions against this villan for the remaining time he stays at the table.

Re: Anything wrong here?
 

[ QUOTE ]
"i will gladly spend a fraction of a big bet for this information."

considering my winrate is around .02BB/hand, -.2/bb seems like a big ass hole to dig out of..

[/ QUOTE ]
ten hands is a big ass hole?

plus you really don't think seeing his hand is going to help you immensely against him later in this session? i mean sure it's possible he just gets up and leaves soon, or you're nearing the end of your own session. but if you plan to stay, it's not a big loss for the info you get.

Re: Anything wrong here?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"i will gladly spend a fraction of a big bet for this information."

considering my winrate is around .02BB/hand, -.2/bb seems like a big ass hole to dig out of..

[/ QUOTE ]
ten hands is a big ass hole?

[/ QUOTE ]

you think you're going to net an extra .2bb in the next ten hands on this read alone? no way

Re: Anything wrong here?
 

no, i'm saying it will only take me ten hands to recover the losses from this call if he just gets up and leaves. i was simply saying that this is not a huge loss.

meanwhile, if he stays seated, i will be able to play much better against him. typically i will play enough hands with him that this money is well spent.

Re: Anything wrong here?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Villain had only played a couple of hands and I had no reads or stats on him.

Party Poker 1.00/2.00 Hold'em <font color="#0000FF">(6 handed)</font> link

Preflop: Hero is CO with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 folds</font>, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (6.00 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB calls, BB folds.

Turn: (4.00 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks. (I don't like betting here against unknown villains)

River: (4.00 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB 3-bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 10.00 BB.

[/ QUOTE ]
Grunching...

I prefer betting the turn and taking a free showdown UI because of the straight draw on board. I don't want to have to call the river UI. Also, if I improve, I can put in another bet on the river.

When you bet the turn, you will get calls out of draws, overcards etc. You'll also get called when behind, but that is moot since we want to see a showdown regardless (calling a bet on the end after checking turn).

In the long run, getting AK to showdown will be more profitable when it's done without the villain showing any aggression (betting the turn and letting him call instead of snapping off an infrequent bluff). If you check turn and call river, you are less likely ahead because a bet is more likely to mean you are behind. Some of the times he will check and fold, and you gain nothing. I think this level is fishy enough to make turn bets profitable. However, if your villain doesn't call light, then I would lean towards a check, and fold river UI.

I like the river raise, but I think you have to fold when it's 3-bet. The pot's not big enough I don't think.

Re: Anything wrong here?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Is betting the turn +EV though?

Whats your reasoning?

How many outs are all of the "turn betters" giving us?
Are we ahead of drawing?
is our opponent folding?
What is our equity?


i think we miss the river and are behind to often to bet the turn.

Also IF WE BET AND HE RAISES we're getting 7:1 and with 6 outs we can call.

I dont like the turn bet, Please argue your point though - id like a conclusion here [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]
If you often check the turn and fold the river, even the dumb bad players will pick up on this and start peeling and then betting when you check.

That turn doesn't really help a lot of his flop peeling hands. So if we were ahead on the flop we are good on the turn. If he was ahead to begin with, oh well that's the breaks. We will more than make up for it when we're betting top pair ALL THE WAY and get called down. Don't forget that we have outs and can improve to the winner, so we don't need him to fold. Neither does getting called on the turn mean we are behind. I get called all the time on the turn with absolute crap.