150-300 PAYOFF
 

You open in a tough game against tight blinds in the CO with Ks 3s. Only the BB calls.

Flop comes Qs Qc 5s. Checked to you, you bet and are checkraised. You quickly 3 bet and get are called.

Turn is a 2c. Check Check.

River 3d. BB bets, you call.

Comments?

Re: 150-300 PAYOFF
 

You gots to pay off here. Tight/weakish blinds are very fond of playing big aces like this.

Re: 150-300 PAYOFF
 

I would call here 100% of the time. Youre raising preflop on a steal, the BB knows this. The flop is a paired board, and people love to make plays on paired boards, even tight players, especially against a stealers preflop range. There is still a decent chance the villain has complete air right now and it is also possibe that he is on a flush draw just like you are. Youre probably thinking how can the villain have nothing if he called your flop 3 bet. The answer is many people in this situation will still pay one small bet to see if they can pair up on the turn. When you check the turn you are basically inviting him to bluff you on the river so your hand is too strong to consider folding.


On another subject, I like your flop play but I dont like your turn check, becuz theres a decent chance your king high might still be the best hand, and it would be best if you bet the turn and force the villain to either correctly fold his 6 outer or incorrectly call. If the villain has a better hand than you, you still have outs anyways. And if the villain has a queen and he checkraises you on the turn, well thats annoying but thats poker, paying a little extra to draw to your hand sometimes is still worth it when you consider the times you win the pot with a turn bet, or you are betting the best hand on the turn.

If you bet the turn and the villain calls, and you miss the river, I would not bet, I would just show down my king high and see if its good since at this point the villain will never fold a pair or an ace, if he has a better king good for him. You can still beat any broken flush draw that didnt pair up.

Re: 150-300 PAYOFF
 

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You gots to pay off here. Tight/weakish blinds are very fond of playing aces like this.

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Re: 150-300 PAYOFF
 

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On another subject, I like your flop play but I dont like your turn check, becuz theres a decent chance your king high might still be the best hand, and it would be best if you bet the turn and force the villain to incorrectly fold his ace high hand that's beating you.

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Re: 150-300 PAYOFF
 

I think flat calling the flop c/r and raising the turn is also a viable play.

your line is good as well.

Re: 150-300 PAYOFF
 

[ QUOTE ]
You open in a tough game against tight blinds in the CO with Ks 3s. Only the BB calls.

Flop comes Qs Qc 5s. Checked to you, you bet and are checkraised. You quickly 3 bet and get are called.

Turn is a 2c. Check Check.

River 3d. BB bets, you call.

Comments?

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I would have called the river too as BB has to think that a decent/big ace has a value bet.

I found your flop and turn play awkward at first but after thinking about it I'm guessing you 3 bet the flop hoping to put no more money in the hand i.e. if BB bet turn or river you would know you were beat and would fold.
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Ok I'm thought about it a little more and I'm still not sure of your plan. I understand you have to defend against the re-steal flop check-raise or else blinds will run over you.....but if you thought the BB had air why not bet the turn? He has a hard time calling with undercards. And if you thought he probably had an ace or a pair....well I don't know I guess I would need more info on BB to understand the flop 3 bet. Care to elaborate?

Re: 150-300 PAYOFF
 

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I found your flop and turn play awkward at first but after thinking about it I'm guessing you 3 bet the flop hoping to put no more money in the hand i.e. if BB bet turn or river you would know you were beat and would fold.
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Ok I'm thought about it a little more and I'm still not sure of your plan. I understand you have to defend against the re-steal flop check-raise or else blinds will run over you.....but if you thought the BB had air why not bet the turn? He has a hard time calling with undercards. And if you thought he probably had an ace or a pair....well I don't know I guess I would need more info on BB to understand the flop 3 bet. Care to elaborate?

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Flush draw.

Re: 150-300 PAYOFF
 

[ QUOTE ]
but if you thought the BB had air why not bet the turn? He has a hard time calling with undercards. And if you thought he probably had an ace or a pair....well I don't know I guess I would need more info on BB to understand the flop 3 bet. Care to elaborate?

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Not to answer for him, but if I think he has air I'm calling the the flop c/r and popping the turn. If I put him on on an ace or 5 then I'd much rather 3-bet the flop and check behind on the turn to take my shot at 3-15 outs.

Seems pretty standard blind steal/draw play against many opponents. If he has air trap him for the extra .5bb and get the free river when we know we can't show down without a good one.

Re: 150-300 PAYOFF
 

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I found your flop and turn play awkward at first but after thinking about it I'm guessing you 3 bet the flop hoping to put no more money in the hand i.e. if BB bet turn or river you would know you were beat and would fold.
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Ok I'm thought about it a little more and I'm still not sure of your plan. I understand you have to defend against the re-steal flop check-raise or else blinds will run over you.....but if you thought the BB had air why not bet the turn? He has a hard time calling with undercards. And if you thought he probably had an ace or a pair....well I don't know I guess I would need more info on BB to understand the flop 3 bet. Care to elaborate?

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Flush draw.

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Funny how a good player knows when another player has missed something. I didn't see the flush draw - thanks.

Re: 150-300 PAYOFF
 

I think the payoff is almost automatic. The real question is the play on earlier streets. I play mostly short handed so that might color my feelings, but here is my two cents. If you feel that the flop check raise is a re-steal attempt you need to play the hand EXACTLY like you would if you had a queen or a big wired pair. Would you normally three bet the flop with those holdings? I would probably flat call and raise the turn. If i did three bet the flop, I am definitely betting the turn when checked to, and reevaluting if i get check raised (probably mucking at that point).

I think flat calling the flop and raising the turn the turn will cost u only an extra 1.5 small bets when it gets checked through on the river, and also makes it a lot more likely your opponent mucks something like 44-99, which I doubt he has anyway.

I would only check the turn back if I had a decent number of outs against three queens.

Re: 150-300 PAYOFF
 

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If i did three bet the flop, I am definitely betting the turn when checked to, and reevaluting if i get check raised (probably mucking at that point).

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You can't muck the turn here as you still have the flush draw and are getting 6-1 by that time.

Re: 150-300 PAYOFF
 

Most people seem to think we should pay this one off. I'm not so sure. If you had ace high in the blinds, wouldn't you be trying to snap off a bluff on this river rather than trying to bluff yourself? It is quite a parlay to hope the blind a) has AK b) didn't 3 bet it preflop and c) is value betting to get a worse ace to call. I don't think AK would bluff this river, he woudl rather check and call. I do think smaller pocket pairs like 77 would bet this river and try to get AK or AJ to call. If we are calling here it seems like we are trying to snap off a busted flush draw.

Re: 150-300 PAYOFF
 

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You gots to pay off here. Tight/weakish blinds are very fond of playing big aces like this.

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Why do you think the opponent has A-high? I have very hard to understand why a good player would bet a hand like that on the river.

When the opponent bets out on the river I put him on two type of hands:

1. A strong hand. He is valuebetting a big pocket pair, trips, full house etc. Maybe he just called your 3-bet on the flop with the intention to checkraise you on the turn. When you failed to give him this opportunity he now bets the river in an attempt to atleast get some value of his hand. He has no reason to believe you will bet the river after you checked the turn so he can't go for a checkraise again.

2. A hand without showndown value. Maybe he took a shot at you on the flop with some weak holding. Maybe he also has a flushdraw, but a low one without showdown value. Nevertheless, he now bets the river as a last desperation move to steal the pot. He knows his hand doesn't have any chance to win if he checks. But your turn check indicated that you were on a flush draw and if your hand doesn't have any showdowndown value you will probably fold.

All other types of hands won't bet the river IMO. This means hands that are not strong enough to valuebet the river, but still has showndown value. This group includes hands like A-high, K-high, pair of deuces, threes. A pair of fives will probably bet the river. Why would the opponent bet a hand like A-high on the river? A bet like that has no value. No worse hand will call and a better hand will not fold. The best he can do with that hand is to check and maybe induce a bluff.

I play at stakes far from 150-300, so maybe I should not respond to this thread at all...

Re: 150-300 PAYOFF
 

im assuming this isn't about the river b/c id call there all the time.

flop turn combo then is fine as it nearly always buys you a free card vs. his possible A-high/pair/lower flush draw.

on the turn you clearly check to avoid putting in more bets as a dog and possibly putting two in. something to keep in mind though: in tough games, ive seen good players c'r this turn w/ a pair and fold to a 3bet. clearly if you get c'red again it may be against a Q, but in that case you still have outs and almost every other hand a good player has here (read: small pair/ace high) that also checkraises the turn, folds to the 3bet. not an everyday play, but in this circumstance, i think it works a good enough % of the time, especially since you have a flush draw and possibly an overdard draw to back it up.

Barron

Re: 150-300 PAYOFF
 

Were you calling unimproved ? Pair of 3 doesn't really change that much, I don't think ace high bets there as Paluka said. I think if you call and are good king high would've been good too.

Re: 150-300 PAYOFF
 

Comments? How do you guys feel about this open in the cutoff is it profitable?

The CO in this hand was not me, it was mimi tran, and I was in the big blind with a strangely played AQ.

You guys can comment on my play as well, which isn't too good. I think the flop should be four bet.

Re: 150-300 PAYOFF
 

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Were you calling unimproved ? Pair of 3 doesn't really change that much, I don't think ace high bets there as Paluka said. I think if you call and are good king high would've been good too.

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i dont think so. opponent can see Ahigh flush draw here given the way JV played it and bet for value to be called by Ahigh if he has a pair or better than A high.

with the pair of 3s, you now beat those A high hands.

id call there all most every time in a tough game for a few reasons, being best is only 1 of those reasons. think of the hands you'd like to play like that and take a free showdown with. after raising the flop and checking the turn, many opponents will take special note of what you do on the river, do you want a free showdown? do you have a hand you're willing to call but not bet? by calling, it takes off a level of bluffing equity that they may think they have for future hands given you fold this one.

im not even 100% sure the call is -ev based on its value alone. in a tough game, changeups occur every so often and this could be one of them, although the smart money is probably on 55-77 betting this river. but i can definately see a busted flush draw or Ahigh betting as well as a bluff and two way bet respectively.

Barron

Re: 150-300 PAYOFF
 

[ QUOTE ]
Comments? How do you guys feel about this open in the cutoff is it profitable?

The CO in this hand was not me, it was mimi tran, and I was in the big blind with a strangely played AQ.

You guys can comment on my play as well, which isn't too good. I think the flop should be four bet.

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I her play is terrible. Preflop raise terrible. I think the river call is a loser as well. Assuming you want to smooth call preflop for some reason, I think you should 4 bet the flop or donkbet the turn. But I don't think your line is too bad really. It only really seems bad when the PFR happens to have a flush draw, which isn't that often.

Re: 150-300 PAYOFF
 

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Were you calling unimproved ? Pair of 3 doesn't really change that much, I don't think ace high bets there as Paluka said. I think if you call and are good king high would've been good too.

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i dont think so. opponent can see Ahigh flush draw here given the way JV played it and bet for value to be called by Ahigh if he has a pair or better than A high.

with the pair of 3s, you now beat those A high hands.

id call there all most every time in a tough game for a few reasons, being best is only 1 of those reasons. think of the hands you'd like to play like that and take a free showdown with. after raising the flop and checking the turn, many opponents will take special note of what you do on the river, do you want a free showdown? do you have a hand you're willing to call but not bet? by calling, it takes off a level of bluffing equity that they may think they have for future hands given you fold this one.

im not even 100% sure the call is -ev based on its value alone. in a tough game, changeups occur every so often and this could be one of them, although the smart money is probably on 55-77 betting this river. but i can definately see a busted flush draw or Ahigh betting as well as a bluff and two way bet respectively.

Barron

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Sometimes I think the people on this board are willing to make a -EV play on every street of every hand just because it sets up +EV plays at some point in the future.

Re: 150-300 PAYOFF
 

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Comments? How do you guys feel about this open in the cutoff is it profitable?

The CO in this hand was not me, it was mimi tran, and I was in the big blind with a strangely played AQ.

You guys can comment on my play as well, which isn't too good. I think the flop should be four bet.

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was your plan to checkraise the turn? i don't think its too bad of a line though i think i like putting the pedel to the metal and 4 betting her.

Re: 150-300 PAYOFF
 

JV,

What did you put her on? I guess a worse Ace-high that calls but checks behind?

Re: 150-300 PAYOFF
 

I think that if the button and blinds are all pretty tight, Mimi raising K3s in the CO can be +EV, and I don't think its automatically a bad play as some people in this thread seem to think. I like your smooth call preflop with AQ in the BB.

Just about everyone in the CO in this situation will auto-bet this flop, so I also like your checkraise. After that I think you played very oddly. In my mind, her 3-bet screams "I want a free turn!" If she had the other queen or a pretty big pair, I believe she would call your flop checkraise and then raise the turn, rather than 3-bet the flop, as it would earn her an extra half bet if you were the one drawing or if she put you on a smaller pair or A high. Because of this, I would have capped the flop and led the last two streets, or at the very least, donk-bet the turn after calling the flop 3-bet. Unless she flopped a boat (which she didn't), there is no way she has you beat here, and I wouldn't want to miss any bets if I were you, nor give her any free cards if she does have outs (which she did).

Re: 150-300 PAYOFF
 

given the way you played it, do you think checking the river is a viable option to induce a bluff? (no reason to believe the 3 helps her hand and her hand seems pretty weak A high or flush draw-ish.)

Re: 150-300 PAYOFF
 

havent read responses ...

fold preflop obv...

rest of hand is fine you are going to win this calldown more often that you think, these paired boards get checkraised by Ace hi a lot IMO...

Re: 150-300 PAYOFF
 

I 3 bet preflop with this hand some of the time.

Once the flop comes I dont think you can ever lay off the gas pedal, 4 bet flop bet turn ...

Re: 150-300 PAYOFF
 

I was planning to checkraise the turn. 4 betting the flop and leading the turn is clearly better. And if called maybe check-raising the river.

Re: 150-300 PAYOFF
 

A flush draw didn't enter my mind. I thought she had a good ace high a low to medium pair or an overpair. I figured he most likely hand was around 77 and that she would probably bet the turn.

After not four betting, donk betting is much better than going for a check raise.

Re: 150-300 PAYOFF
 

Nomar u think the BB is betting the river with A high?

Re: 150-300 PAYOFF
 

i think the BB is betting that river with every hand other than Ace high, pairs as well as King high and worse hands...

so no haitus, i dont think the BB is betting A high, I dont think calling the river with K high would be the worst play either...

Re: 150-300 PAYOFF
 

I think a middle pair is a very viable hand for here here. Thus i bet the river. Maybe putting her on a small pair after checking the turn is wrong. Hard to put her on a flush draw though.

Re: 150-300 PAYOFF
 

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I was planning to checkraise the turn. 4 betting the flop and leading the turn is clearly better. And if called maybe check-raising the river.

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It is easy to tell from your flop line that you were planning a turn check-raise. My point was simply that her flop 3-bet in this particular situation very clearly means to me that she wants to check behind on the turn. In retrospect that is obvious to anyone, but you are definitely a good enough player that you should have known it during the hand (maybe you did know it subconsciously and just chose to ignore it). Because you knew or should have known she would check behind on the turn once she 3-bet the flop, the correct play very obviously becomes to 4-bet the flop and lead the turn. Even if there is a small chance she wasn't going to check the turn, by going for the flop call and turn checkraise you are going to miss 1.5 BBs a huge percentage of the time, and you are only going to gain .5 BB a small percentage of the time when the turn checkraise does work. So I think it is clear what should have been done.

Re: 150-300 PAYOFF
 

"I think a middle pair is a very viable hand for her here. Thus i bet the river"

If for some reason u knew for sure she had a middle pair then checkraising is the right play by a wide margin.

Re: 150-300 PAYOFF
 

You described yourself as a tight blind. I think calling the 3 bet and donking the turn would by far draw more action from a weaker hand than 4 betting and leading out would.

When a tight blind c/r's, calls a 3 bet and donks, his hand isn't defined. When he 4 bets and leads there, he's much more likely to have a Q than a draw or PP. She wouldn't think that?

Re: 150-300 PAYOFF
 

I think that CO played the hand well, on all streets.

The call on the river is clear with tough players.

I don't like the way JV played the hand. I would have 4 bet and led the turn. Then bet or checkraise the river if you think Mimi will bet a bust-out and depending on her calling hands (will she call with a busted nut flush draw).

Re: 150-300 PAYOFF
 

Wow, I can't agree with you here, Paluka. Why is this a fold preflop? I'm a nit, for sure, and I'm stealing with K3s here, especially against tight blinds. I'm also playing the hand the way she did, all the way. She gets a free card when she knows she's beaten and then has a crying call on the end.

What kind of hands do you think Mimi will play this way? I think it's any decent A and any pair. If she has a pair, you let her off the hook too easy with JV's line. Not 4 betting and leading the turn may be good if you think she'll fold if you do jam it, but I don't find that happening very often (if it does, then you've got a ripe opponent, BTW).

Re: 150-300 PAYOFF
 

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I think that CO played the hand well, on all streets.

The call on the river is clear with tough players.

I don't like the way JV played the hand. I would have 4 bet and led the turn. Then bet or checkraise the river if you think Mimi will bet a bust-out and depending on her calling hands (will she call with a busted nut flush draw).

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Why do you like the call on the river? What hand do you think the big blind checkraised the flop with and then bet the river? A busted flush draw seems like the only hand to me that would bet this river that you have beat. Ace high won't bet the river.

Re: 150-300 PAYOFF
 

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Wow, I can't agree with you here, Paluka. Why is this a fold preflop? I'm a nit, for sure, and I'm stealing with K3s here, especially against tight blinds. I'm also playing the hand the way she did, all the way. She gets a free card when she knows she's beaten and then has a crying call on the end.

What kind of hands do you think Mimi will play this way? I think it's any decent A and any pair. If she has a pair, you let her off the hook too easy with JV's line. Not 4 betting and leading the turn may be good if you think she'll fold if you do jam it, but I don't find that happening very often (if it does, then you've got a ripe opponent, BTW).

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When the blinds were described as tight, the game was also called tough. I took this to mean "the blinds are tight-aggresive players who play well" not "the blinds are tight players who fold too much in the blinds". In games like this, the button probably 3 bets you aggressively as well. I just think that K3s is not quite a strong enough hand to open with. I don't like playing shorthanded pots with 2s and 3s in my hand, either. If you assured me the blinds were "tight rocks" rather than "tight aggressive" then I could see the preflop raise being +EV.

Re: 150-300 PAYOFF
 

Like I said the river is a crying call, but I think a flush draw is common enough that it's at least close enough to not matter, but I actuall think it's better than that. It's always good for the image to not fold here, too, especially against tough players. I don't like Jam n' Fold poker and I suppose Mimi doesn't either.

Re: 150-300 PAYOFF
 

I hear you here too, but I guess I don't play many hands, so I tend to get some extra respect here. This is a clear steal from me, but I really am a nit most of the time. I'm not going to marry myself to the hand either, so won't be in too much trouble as long as the thing isn't capped back to me, I'm OK, especially if I get 3 bet from one of the blinds and not the button.