Laggiest Game Ever
 

First time at a new casino tonight, i sit down at 1/2 HE table. It is eight-handed, i sit to left of my friend, we are both TAGs. What proceeds is the loosest game i have ever seen.
(Warning not Exaggerating) average size of pot preflop is 26 or 27 small bets. About 80 percent of the hands i dont particpate in, everyone else is in for the cap. Same story on successive streets, i would say it averaged one folder per street, and about 2/3 of the streets after the flop were capped.
I ran cold, but im not going to tell you that they were "too bad to beat". This game was amazing. Everyone was drunken donk-bettin, waiving their money away, and being friendly. 7 donators playing poker like it was slots. My question, should i be tight because i know everything will be capped?
Shoujld i follow SSHE recommendations to the letter and go with the raises? Should i loosen up even more?
Any advice?

Re: Laggiest Game Ever
 

I'd just sit there and wait for AA, KK, QQ, and AKs. I think JJ-99 are also playable if you're sure that the average pot will be around 20 big bets or so (in addition to your contributions), and any lower pair if the pot is up around 25 big bets.

PP

Re: Laggiest Game Ever
 

Wouldn't you want to also play suited connectors, they play well mutliway and can take down a big pot and are easy to ditch if the flop misses?
Q.

Re: Laggiest Game Ever
 

I wouldn't, if I had to pay 4 small bets with them preflop. That hurts your implied odds.

PP

Re: Laggiest Game Ever
 

just join them. cap everything pf. you play better postflop anyway. have fun its 1/2 live for christs sake

Re: Laggiest Game Ever
 

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I wouldn't, if I had to pay 4 small bets with them preflop. That hurts your implied odds.

PP

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Don't the implied odds go up since it stays multiway and the bigger bets on the later streets are getting capped as well? My home games are like this and big pairs never hold up.

Re: Laggiest Game Ever
 

There is a common misconception that you should play tightly against loose players. This is wrong, as is mentioned in SSHE.

You could profit in such a game by playing tightly, but that would be far from optimal. You should play more tightly than your opponents, but you should be much looser than in a normal game. The reason is that the players who are capping with 92o are contributing so much dead money that they convert many normally unprofitable hands into profitable hands.

The value of suitedness goes up. The value of connectedness goes up. You do not need implied odds to play low pocket pairs and suited connectors and Axs, as they have enough value without implied odds. You should pitch A7o.

Re: Laggiest Game Ever
 

Okay. About big pairs not holding up -- you're right, most times they don't, against lots of players. But sometimes they do, and they will more than their fair share.

About the little pairs -- yes, if your expected profit when you hit a set and it holds up is 20ish big bets or more, then you should play little pairs for any amount pre-flop.

I disagree with playing little suited connectors. Here's my reasoning, which may or may not be correct. You'll flop a draw or made hand about 1 out of 9 times. Your draw will come through about 1/3 of the time you flop a draw. You'll win if you hit your draw about 80% of the time. So, you pay 8*2BB + (2/3)*8BB + (1/3)*12BB = 25ish BB to win XBB 80% of the time. This means it's a break-even play if your expected profit is around 32BB or so. Can you really count on the pot always being that big? The assumptions are a little pessimistic, but I think they're reasonable. Of course, I could be totally wrong.

For what it's worth, HPFAP talks about extremely loose games somewhere around page 214 or so. I think their argument is believable.

PP

Re: Laggiest Game Ever
 

Actually I think you flop an OE draw or flush draw 1:5.25
http://www.texasholdempoker-stats.com/thp_flop.html

This does not include 1:28 that you flop 2 pair or better or an inside straight draw.

Re: Laggiest Game Ever
 

19.5% about to hit 2 pair or better or an OE/flush draw.

This does not count guts. Which at this point you have odds to call to the river.

But this is all good is most of the players stick around for the river If it cuts out after the flop then I believe it would be wrong.

I know in TH4AP it states in these games where the pot is capped every street you wait for premium only, AA-QQ, AKs, AQs. But I think it also implies few players seeing the flop not the whole table.

Re: Laggiest Game Ever
 

Ooops, you're right -- I messed up the calculation in the earlier pot anyway; I forgot to reduce the expected profit when you missed your draw. Disregard my earlier post.

I'll try again, and hopefully not screw this one up.

For the suited connectors...
Assumptions:
5.25:1 to flop flush draw/OESD.
28:1 to flop a made hand.
28:1 to flop a gutshot.
~2:1 to hit your flush/OESD.
~5:1 to hit your gutshot.
You'll fold the flop without a draw or made hand.
You'll fold the river without making your draw.
All streets are capped at 4 bets.
Your hand, if you make it, will hold up 90% of the time.

Fold on the flop: (.77)*2BB
Flop a good draw and miss: (.16)*(2/3)*8BB
Flop a good draw, hit it, lose: (.16)*(1/3)*(.1)*12BB
Flop a made hand and lose: (.035)*(.1)*12BB
Flop a gutshot and miss: (.035)*(5/6)*8BB
Flop a gutshot, hit, lose: (.035)*(1/6)*(.1)*12BB
Total cost per hand you play and lose: ~2.75 BB

% won with good draw: (.16)*(1/3)*(.9)
% won with made hand: (.035)*(.9)
% won with gutshot: (.035)*(1/6)*(.9)
You'll win ~8.5% of the hands you play.

Break-even point: (2.75BB)/(.085)= ~32.5 BB

That is, there to be 32.5 BB in the pot from other people when you win for this to be EV neutral.

PP

Re: Laggiest Game Ever
 

[ QUOTE ]
There is a common misconception that you should play tightly against loose players. This is wrong, as is mentioned in SSHE.

You could profit in such a game by playing tightly, but that would be far from optimal. You should play more tightly than your opponents, but you should be much looser than in a normal game. The reason is that the players who are capping with 92o are contributing so much dead money that they convert many normally unprofitable hands into profitable hands.

The value of suitedness goes up. The value of connectedness goes up. You do not need implied odds to play low pocket pairs and suited connectors and Axs, as they have enough value without implied odds. You should pitch A7o.

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This is a great post! In these games small pocket pairs and AXs are premium hands, because you are trying to flop sets and nut flushes. IMO, small suited connectors (below 8-9) go down in value a little bit, because they have negative implied odds to a bigger flush (as no one throws away suited trash hands like Q3s). That said, hands like AJ KQ and the like go way up in value, you can and should play them against mulitple raises.

Re: Laggiest Game Ever
 

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I know in TH4AP it states in these games where the pot is capped every street you wait for premium only, AA-QQ, AKs, AQs.

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I've lent out my copy of THFAP, but if I recall correctly, it doesn't say that. I believe it says that you could profit if you played very tightly, not that it is a good idea. <font color="white">Otherwise, it is wrong.</font>

Could someone quote that excerpt verbatim?

Re: Laggiest Game Ever
 

I can't quote it verbatim (I'm at work), but it suggests playing AA-QQ and AKs only. JJ-99 and AQs-AJs it says are profitable, but only barely so, and add a ton of variance. It's on pages 213-215. It's specifically describing a game where it's capped 4-way preflop, with multiple bets going in on every street post-flop -- not quite the same as the OP's game.

PP

Re: Laggiest Game Ever
 

I had my doubts about a hand like A6s, but after doing a similar calculation as above, it looks like the break-even point is also right around 30 BB. In the OP's game, it looks like most pots were going far past that, so Axs is also playable.

Huh. Live and learn.

PP

Re: Laggiest Game Ever
 

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JJ-99 and AQs-AJs it says are profitable, but only barely so, and add a ton of variance.

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I see two possibilities.

1) You are misremembering it.
2) The book is dead wrong.

AJs is not only barely profitable in a game where 7-8 players are capping preflop.

Re: Laggiest Game Ever
 

You also need to consider that A6s is a hand that will often get action on the high end when it hits. The reason is that if all 9 seats are playing every hand, often times you will see a lower flush if you hit. When this happens this guarentees averaging over the 30BBs that you need to be profitable.

Re: Laggiest Game Ever
 

Okay, I'm at home now...

The first section talks about a game where 7 players regularly cap it. It recommends playing AA-QQ and AKs. "Whether you want to splash around with as little as two tens or AJs is up to you. They will win a little, but they also add to your fluctuations."

The second section talks about a game where only 4 players cap it. It recommends not playing middle and lower pairs because "you are not getting your odds to hit a set, even including your implied odds....if there were more players in, then you could play the two nines becaue you would be getting proper odds for your set. However, fold them when you are only against four people."

The last section talks about other things you need to adjust to mentally playing this tightly. It mentions that "there is nothing wrong with playing tighter than what is theoretically proper. It may reduce your win rate a little, but it will reduce your fluctuations greatly...this style will make it less likely that the live ones will quickly make a big win and quit on you."

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I think the OP's game is analogous to a loose game (7ish players preflop) where there's a single bet on each street (no raising allowed) and very tiny blinds compared to the size of the bet (1/8 and 1/4 of a small bet).

Isn't it correct to play very tightly in that game? It only costs you a fraction of a bet to sit out a round, and you can't raise on the turn/river when you hit your drawing hands.

PP

Re: Laggiest Game Ever
 

This sounds like a typical South Louisiana 4-8 game on any given night. I FEAST on games like this. Re-read SSHE's loose tables, loosen up just a tad more, commit it to memory, and go make some money. CO and Button play is key to making a killing at a game like this. Remember, position is GOLDEN in HE.

Re: Laggiest Game Ever
 

Maybe loosen up, but just a tad, right?

From SSHE:

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p. 78 "It [the game] is passive to somewhat aggressive before the flop (about 15 to 35 percent of pots are raised)...If your game differs from this template, these recommendations will not be accurate."

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From this, I don't think we can rely on the "loose table" starting chart in SSHE.

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p. 85 "If more than about thirty percent of all hands are raised and reraised before the flop...you may also play 99, AQs-ATs, KQs-KJs, and AQo." [This is in addition to the AA-TT, AKs, and AKo recommended in the preceeding two paragraphs.]

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This is a little bit looser than the AA-QQ and AKs recommended in HPFAP. The section in HPFAP did say that a few other hands were marginally profitable, but were ignored to reduce variance.

Aren't unsuited hands (even AKo and AQo) at a disadvantage in a multiway pots?

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p. 85 "Even if your opponents are extremely loose and crazy, you cannot play speculative hands profitably if you must pay three or more bets to see the flop."

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I think this includes hands like Axs and small suited connectors, right?

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p. 85 "Furthermore, to play hands like ATs and KJs profitably for three bets, you must be very sure of your opponents tendencies. If you are not, it is probably best to give them up."

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I'd argue that, given what this statement implies (that you could read your opponents' hands and flop bets well enough to fold decent hands or manipulate their play), this section in SSHE doesn't really apply to games like the OP's (where several players simply go along with the cap on all streets regardless of hand strength).

I can't decide whether this difference means you can profitably play the speculative hands (your implied odds are probably better), or if it means you should tighten up a bit on the recommended hands played (the weaker hands are no longer profitable).

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On the second part of your post...

How does position help you in the OP's original game?

I understand the value of position in a regular game, but in a game where 4+ people are going to the cap on every street, isn't position relatively worthless?

PP

Re: Laggiest Game Ever
 

Watch for spots where they slow down in the betting. Many times it's on the bigger streets. That's where they'll usually define their hands.

Also beware of any tight player entering the pot.

You're basically playing from the flop on as you know it will be capped preflop.

You could play the AA-QQ, AKs etc...book recommendation. Note that it also says your winrate will be lower, but your fluctuations won't be as great. That's the trade off.

What I play in these games:

All Pocket pairs. Sets are golden in these games.

All suited broadways JT or higher.

Only offsuit is AK. AQo some add in, I don't.

Axs. (Your ace could easily be good if you make a pair. You're not worried as much about being outkicked in these games)

Anticipate raises behind you postflop to better calculate odds for draws. This way you won't trap yourself. Know who the aggressors are during the hand.

There you go. You will still be sitting out for long periods waiting for these hands. If the fluctuations get to you too much, tighten it up. These are great games once you get used to them. They can be scary at first glance.

Bring a bulk size bottle of Maalox with you to the table.

b