AK vs extremely Aggresive tag(says PT)
 

<font color="green">Reads

<u>MP - An AGGRESSIVE TAG</u> My notes show the following:

He once Smooth called a flopped set,
He Preflop raises on the button with 2 or so limpers with A5s.

Hes played most things pretty standard, He did continuation bet a 976 flop with QJs having 3bet from button after CO raised then checked the flop to him. He spiked a jack on the turn and bet but then checked behind on the Ace(976JA).

He also represented trips on the river as a bluff with KJ HU on a QA85Q flop after he'd been calling down OOP.

So basically MP is an aggressive TAG who raises alot of hands in CO/Button and has once bluffed the river OOP HU.

PT Stats of:22/16/4.2 over 1200 hands. 38/56 WTSD/W$SD </font>

<u>Button on the other hand</u> has no notes and is 34/9/.74 over 290 with WTSD and W$SD of: 47/37



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$1/2 5Handed 6max Game

Preflop:(5handed) Hero(CO) in CO with: A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
<font color="red">MP Raises</font> , <font color="red">Hero 3Bets</font>, Button Calls, SB Calls, BB folds, MP calls.


Flop:(13 SB) A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
SB Checks, <font color="red">MP bets</font>, <font color="red">Hero Raises</font>, Button Calls, SB Calls,<font color="red"> MP ReRaise(3bet)</font>, Hero Calls, Button Calls, SB Folds

Turn: (12 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
<font color="red">MP Bets</font>, <font color="red">Hero Raises</font>, Button Calls, <font color="red">MP 3bets.</font>, Hero Calls, Button Calls.


River:(21BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
MP Checks, Hero Checks, Button Checks.

Reasons for my play to come later, Critque all streets [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: AK vs extremely Aggresive tag(says PT)
 

I play it the same.

Re: AK vs extremely Aggresive tag(says PT)
 

dude, I like everything about this.

waiting for the turn to pop it again in this huge pot is superb.

you can't bet the river I agree, I really doubt you're ahead of MP in the first place and button has been playing like he has a flush.

vnh

Re: AK vs extremely Aggresive tag(says PT)
 

I would have capped the flop here... if a [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] comes on the turn it could limit your action so i would prefer to get the money in now when your most likely ahead.

I dont mind the rest of the hand tbh [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Edit: Bah..im wrong. The only way to protect your hand here is to call the flop 3-bet and hope the MP player bets into you on the turn so you can raise and face the button with 2 bets. nh

Re: AK vs extremely Aggresive tag(says PT)
 

I play it the same, then spend the next 20 minutes being distracted while I try to decide if capping the flop would have been better.

Given the flop, I don't see any other way to play turn or river.

Re: AK vs extremely Aggresive tag(says PT)
 

Awesome reads. It's so nice to have something besides stats to go on in these posts. (You might want to consider using shorthand to keep your notes fit on the screen. Eg, the first note becomes: sc F w/ set; second: pfr 2limp OTB A5s; etc.)

Back to the hand at, err, hand.

Cap that flop! You're almost certainly way ahead here barring an unlikely 77/66 from MP. Button isn't aggressive to let you know what he has either way and he loves to get to showdown, so ignore the monsters and keep betting.

The hand may or may not play differently if you cap the flop. The way you played it, the raise/call is good. Be afraid of that turn 3-bet though. He knows you have an A after your preflop and flop action. His 3-bet here says he can beat it - probably with AQ/A7/A6.

River check though is good. I'd be more concerned about MP's likely 2-pair than about button catching his draw.

Re: AK vs extremely Aggresive tag(says PT)
 

If he bets the river, do you want to call or fold?

I feel i can't comment as i'm biased to the results. Ill post their hands shortly.

i was suprised at the TAGS AF, i thought it was a dodgey sample size or something lol.

Pistol: About the notes, they are shorthanded converted to long hand so no one got confused with my crazy abbreviations LOL.

Re: AK vs extremely Aggresive tag(says PT)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Cap that flop! You're almost certainly way ahead here barring an unlikely 77/66 from MP. Button isn't aggressive to let you know what he has either way and he loves to get to showdown, so ignore the monsters and keep betting.

[/ QUOTE ]

correct me if I'm wrong pokher, but the reasoning behind waiting until the turn to raise again after MP's 3bet isn't because we are seeing monsters but because we want to protect our hand. if button has some 7x/6x/gutshot hand we can force him to make mistakes on the turn much easier if we let MP bet into us again.

Re: AK vs extremely Aggresive tag(says PT)
 

Okay. I say go ahead and cap this flop. You won't drive the LP-P button out after they've called 2.

If you're not capping this flop for fear of MP not leading the turn, why aren't you capping the turn?

I also bet the river, figuring to be ahead of a fair range, only losing to AQ, AJ. I don't think the heart draw has come in, but i can see why fear of an MP c/r flush is creeping in on the river. I'd bet-call with it that big.

So i cap the flop and bet/raise the turn OR call the 3bet and cap the turn. I bet-call the river.

Re: AK vs extremely Aggresive tag(says PT)
 

IMO that turn 3bet means we are beat a LOT of the time

Re: AK vs extremely Aggresive tag(says PT)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Cap that flop! You're almost certainly way ahead here barring an unlikely 77/66 from MP. Button isn't aggressive to let you know what he has either way and he loves to get to showdown, so ignore the monsters and keep betting.

[/ QUOTE ]

correct me if I'm wrong pokher, but the reasoning behind waiting until the turn to raise again after MP's 3bet isn't because we are seeing monsters but because we want to protect our hand. if button has some 7x/6x/gutshot hand we can force him to make mistakes on the turn much easier if we let MP bet into us again.

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Spot on, Hand protection.

I didn't expect SB to fold of course and that would mean the pot would be huge.

its 13SB now, 4players paying 4bets = 16bets + 13 bets.

Thats 29SB on the turn or 14.5BB
MP bets, I raise thats 17.5:2 or 8-9:1 (Gut shots can call with HUGE IMPLIED if they hit).

Anyhow its pretty hard to think that when holding TPTK in a huge pot with one nutty opponent lol.

I think my reasoning is ok and i think protection probably was the best line although i wonder if the implied actually mean he can call a gutshot anyhow the way i played it.

Which would mean capping for value was best.

edit: didnt notice peters response sorry,
MP's 3bet after me showing alot of aggression preflop and on the flop says me i'm behind so i think capping(Specially when the queen hits) is a bit to aggressive.

Who disagrees? What have you got MP on?

Re: AK vs extremely Aggresive tag(says PT)
 

even from someone with 4.2 postflop aggression? with that i'd reckon betting KK and AK-AT comes out like that.

Intriguing tho as i am a spaztard turn aggression man.

Re: AK vs extremely Aggresive tag(says PT)
 

I call small sample size on the 4.2 AF bit, I see that kind of stuff in my daily stats all the time and i'm a 2.6 kind of guy. nothing about pokher's excellent reads made me think KK/AT is even possible, and we're behind AQ and AJ by the time the river rolls around.

even if KK/AT is in his range we know for a fact AQ/QQ/AA/77/66 are too, that's a lot of ground to make up.

Re: AK vs extremely Aggresive tag(says PT)
 

if this guy were more reasonable i would not raise the turn.

against this guy it still seems very close. he can definitely open raises 66 or 77 utg, and he can also defintely have AQ. so i'm not too sure about the turn raise. i mean c'mon, our hand is very obviously AK/AQ.

the only hands i see him bet/3-betting the flop with are 66, 77, AK (no preflop cap though), AQ, AJ, and then A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]X[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] hands that he raised preflop.

maybe i'll look at this in more detail later!

the plan is good, i'm just not sure i follow through when the queen falls is all.

Re: AK vs extremely Aggresive tag(says PT)
 

4.2AF is what made me wonder if i should cap the turn also peter, however having watched him play i actually thought my PA was playing up and his AF had been distorted.

Further checks on his stats seem to show he may be running hot. His bb/100 is 4.5 and his W$WSF is around 50.


However admitedly PT stats arn't my strong point, something i need to read up on further. Specially ranges for 6max.

So is anyone calling a river bet from MP here? What if button calls or button folds, I assume if button raises we're folding.

Thanks.

Edit: Miles, yeah the queen royal screwed me a bit and i lost a fair bit of hope. His Af of 4.2 still gave some hope as to an overplayed flush draw or ACE? As i say though, i was wondering if PT screwed me(it didnt).

Re: AK vs extremely Aggresive tag(says PT)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Cap that flop! You're almost certainly way ahead here barring an unlikely 77/66 from MP. Button isn't aggressive to let you know what he has either way and he loves to get to showdown, so ignore the monsters and keep betting.

[/ QUOTE ]

correct me if I'm wrong pokher, but the reasoning behind waiting until the turn to raise again after MP's 3bet isn't because we are seeing monsters but because we want to protect our hand. if button has some 7x/6x/gutshot hand we can force him to make mistakes on the turn much easier if we let MP bet into us again.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll reply since you quoted my post.

Raising the turn here, as played, gives button 14:2 to call. Do you really think you're forcing out someone who sees almost 50% WtSD? I certainly wouldn't count on it. Sure, you may be creating a bigger mistake for the button if he has a small pair or a gutshot, but who's to say what he has? Until he wakes up, I'm ignoring him. I think there's more value in showing strength on the flop against the aggressor to allow you to take more advantage of your position on later streets.

Regarding the "monsters" bit, I was only acknowledging that there was another player in the hand, not that OP's decision to slow down was every based on that.

Re: AK vs extremely Aggresive tag(says PT)
 

so do people think that MP is going for the river c/r? I doubt he has such a high aggression factor by checking behind 2 pairs and sets on flushing rivers.

I think 1200 hands will help define 4.2 aggro, i mean that's sustained overagression over quite a few hands...yeah it's not a cast-iron sample, but even if someone is running pretty goot it takes a real man to have over 4 overall aggro...

Re: AK vs extremely Aggresive tag(says PT)
 

yes i'm calling a river bet, no i'm not calling a raise, and whether button calls or folds is irrelevant.

Re: AK vs extremely Aggresive tag(says PT)
 

no i dont think he is going for a checkraise, he doesn't seem a guy to play a hand "fancy" and a river C/r here is pretty stupid.

For all i know he could be a 2+2er, theres alot of them clearing the bonus lately it seems.


JBA
[ QUOTE ]
and whether button calls or folds is irrelevant.

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Interesting as i dont think he holds anything TBH, but i think some people may take that into consideration hence i gave the option. I.e. he may be a wimp with 2pair. I do only have ONE pair after all.

Re: AK vs extremely Aggresive tag(says PT)
 

[ QUOTE ]
4.2AF is what made me wonder if i should cap the turn also peter, however having watched him play i actually thought my PA was playing up and his AF had been distorted.

[/ QUOTE ]

Keep in mind that AF is really an indication of calling frequency, not betting frequency. You can get a pretty high AF by just bet/folding a lot postflop.

Not that this means anything for this opponents (yet), but something to keep in mind.

[ QUOTE ]
So is anyone calling a river bet from MP here? What if button calls or button folds, I assume if button raises we're folding.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yuck. The pot is huge, so we're not folding TPTK. I would call and then yell at button to not have hearts or some ratty two pair. If button raises...? The pot would be even huger. I think I'd only call if MP folded.

Re: AK vs extremely Aggresive tag(says PT)
 

you think our ONE PAIR is ahead after all the action and then a MP bet and a button RAISE on a Straight/Flush board like this?

Or even a button bet?

I would call, because we've put one in if MP had bet and button raised.

But even against a bet from button after all the action and that river card i dont see us winning a hand like this after all that action and on that board (Straight, Flush, 2pair etc).

EDIT: Good point about the AF thing and folding.PT stats are a finer point i must touch on in the future.

Re: AK vs extremely Aggresive tag(says PT)
 

I wouldn't overcall, but I would call getting 22 or 25 to 1. I'd say at least one out of twenty time I've seen an otherwise passive player take a swipe at the river with weak hand. With that kind of overlay, it's hard to say that showing down isn't at least 0 EV.

Re: AK vs extremely Aggresive tag(says PT)
 

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JBA
[ QUOTE ]
and whether button calls or folds is irrelevant.

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting as i dont think he holds anything TBH, but i think some people may take that into consideration hence i gave the option. I.e. he may be a wimp with 2pair. I do only have ONE pair after all.

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sorry you misunderstand me, we are acting before button, and if button folds/calls it doesn't reopen the action, so we will never be given the chance to act after button folds or calls -- that's why it's irrelevant. know what i mean dog?

Re: AK vs extremely Aggresive tag(says PT)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't overcall, but I would call getting 22 or 25 to 1. I'd say at least one out of twenty time I've seen an otherwise passive player take a swipe at the river with weak hand. With that kind of overlay, it's hard to say that showing down isn't at least 0 EV.

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Yeh, but after MP's play you think we'll beat them both? TBH i guess its irrelevent as MP is calling the majority of the time anyhow.

Results were:<font color="white"> MP flipped 66, The other guy showed ATo and MP scoops it with a set. Scared of straight flush. Cheers all, great input. </font>

JBA - Understood, I noticed after questioning/posting it [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] Oops.

Re: AK vs extremely Aggresive tag(says PT)
 

Sorry, I've lost the thread of conversation you're referring to. Basically, I'm calling MP's bet. If he checks and button bets or if button raises, I'm calling but not overcalling.