Checking and Calling my way to millions
 

6 handed $150/300.

Raise! opens UTG+1 (henceforth referred to as R! to prevent confusion). R! is pretty solid, TAG, good hand reader blah blah.

I 3bet from the SB with AcTc. R! calls.

Flop [ Qs 8h Ah ]. I bet, he calls.

Turn [ Ks ]. I check, he bets, I call.

River [ 6s ]. I check, he bets, I call.

Re: Checking and Calling my way to millions
 

After taking this line up till the river I am always afraid that they are going to check through so I donk it and usually get raised and always lose so maybe thers something to be said for just check calling. Is he value betting KJ/KT?

Re: Checking and Calling my way to millions
 

i like the turn checkcall and i agree with not donking the river, thats just silly but i think a checkfold could be considered, no?

Re: Checking and Calling my way to millions
 

Isn't the pot big enough for him to call the flop with gutshots, so can't we fairly easily bet the turn again call a raise and fold on the riveR? Doesn't his flop call say I have a hand that deserves a peel way more than it says I have better than TP

Re: Checking and Calling my way to millions
 

He has to put you on a big Ace or PP after your preflop 3-bet. He knows he can't bluff you out of an Ace on this river and that you would have folded (or would fold) a PP on the turn/river. If he sees your turn check-call as a picked up flush draw then he knows his hand is no good. Basically, it seems that Raise! has no reason to bet this river unless he's fairly strong.

I think it's a check-fold.

Re: Checking and Calling my way to millions
 

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He has to put you on a big Ace or PP after your preflop 3-bet.

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I'm not sure of the history between the players and how the game is playing but I'm pretty sure you can make the assumption that this is too narrow of a range of hands to put schneids on solely because he 3 bet out of the sb.

Re: Checking and Calling my way to millions
 

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He has to put you on a big Ace or PP after your preflop 3-bet.

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I'm not sure of the history between the players and how the game is playing but I'm pretty sure you can make the assumption that this is too narrow of a range of hands to put schneids on solely because he 3 bet out of the sb.

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Maybe. But his raise is coming from UTG+1 (or MP as some like to say), so his raise is more legitimate than a CO/Button raise and thus Schneids has to limit his 3-bet range. If villian's raise came from CO/Button then the hand plays much differently, IMO.

Re: Checking and Calling my way to millions
 

when schneids checkcalls the turn the only hands he could really have at this point are

Ax
JJ/TT
and maybe KJs.

the opponent certainly cant expect schneids to fold Ax on this river and its extremely unlikely that the opponent cant beat JJ or TT on this board after making it all the way to the river so theres no reason to bluff against those hands. The only hand he'd be value betting against is KJs when he has a weak ace.

basically what im saying is that i think R! should be checking this river with Ax and isn't likely to be holding a hand that loses to TT or JJ so he should be checking down hands that lose to AT.

Re: Checking and Calling my way to millions
 

you turn bet didnt get raised so this looks like following through with the plan to me - folding the river with top pair not no kicker isnt going to happen unless i know something a lot better than i'm not a favourite to win

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

Re: Checking and Calling my way to millions
 

It seems like you need to have some history with villain to make this a good move. I know you have a read on him, but did you really have enough of a read to know that he wouldn't call down with a worse pair or might even raise with a worse hand? And had villain ever seen you take such a passive line before?

Would you consider taking this line against someone who had never seen you stop

Re: Checking and Calling my way to millions
 

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After taking this line up till the river I am always afraid that they are going to check through so I donk it and usually get raised and always lose so maybe thers something to be said for just check calling. Is he value betting KJ/KT?

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I would imagine he bets a Q here quite a bit unless there's a lot of history. Looks like a pretty good hand.

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basically what im saying is that i think R! should be checking this river with Ax and isn't likely to be holding a hand that loses to TT or JJ so he should be checking down hands that lose to AT.


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?????????????

Re: Checking and Calling my way to millions
 

Isn't KJ, QJ, QT, KT somewhat likely holdings for villain? Wouldn't he valuebet the river? Or is he too likely to cap these preflop?


I like this play. I think I normally just bet the turn without thinking much, and might get put into a really tough spot when he raises me.

Re: Checking and Calling my way to millions
 

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you turn bet didnt get raised so this looks like following through with the plan to me - folding the river with top pair not no kicker isnt going to happen unless i know something a lot better than i'm not a favourite to win

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

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The turn bet was made by the villain, not the hero.

Re: Checking and Calling my way to millions
 

nice hand.

I think calling PR and playing fit or fold also has merits. Would you also 3 bet ATo?

Re: Checking and Calling my way to millions
 

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The turn bet was made by the villain, not the hero.

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the drugs do that to me although this time they failed to kick in

i didnt mean to imply that betting the turn is the way to go - i dont mind check/calling the turn - it could be not knowing what to do if your raised

i chose to not bet the turn so the hand got a bit strange because that isnt happening most of the time - at least it isnt common when i actually have top pair not no kicker - i could wonder about whether my guy has a hand worse than mine given his actions to date more than something like 20% of the time - after all he can play so he knows that i should have at least this much like all the time - i will worry that i'm a chook when he turns over AQo or some such rock

i could go there or i could just figure its top pair not no kicker played a bit strange and press call

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

Re: Checking and Calling my way to millions
 

[ QUOTE ]
He has to put you on a big Ace or PP after your preflop 3-bet. He knows he can't bluff you out of an Ace on this river and that you would have folded (or would fold) a PP on the turn/river. If he sees your turn check-call as a picked up flush draw then he knows his hand is no good. Basically, it seems that Raise! has no reason to bet this river unless he's fairly strong.

I think it's a check-fold.

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I think schneid's play up to now is most indicative of a pair of JJ or TT. Any 'good' hand-reader would value bet an Ax or even KJ. Folding here would be horrible.

Re: Checking and Calling my way to millions
 

you think schneids would check call this river with TT or JJ? you think the opponent thinks schneids will call this river with TT or JJ?

Re: Checking and Calling my way to millions
 

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you think schneids would check call this river with TT or JJ? you think the opponent thinks schneids will call this river with TT or JJ?

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Perhaps not, but in which case his opponent should be playing 66 the exact same way.

I'm not saying you should always call the river w/ JJ here, but given that you have much better than JJ here, you can now beat Ax, KJ, and a 'good hand-reader's' bluff against what he likely perceives to be JJ or TT.

Also, a couple of other points:

1. This looks very much like a classic way behind or way ahead situation in which a check-call strategy works best since it maximizes your win when ahead, and minimizes your loss when behind. Check call does not mean check fold, because there is a decent chance you are ahead.

2. Your pre-flop play should be coordinated with post-flop play. If you're going to reraise OOP with AT, and don't go to showdown when you hit an A, playing in a semi-short game, then you shouldn't have reraise to begin with. It's not like the board is showing a four liner or four flush.

3. I don't like the metagame image of a fold here, especially since you have a hand that will be good more than 15% of the time, given his most likely read on you. Because he will now in the future be betting his 66 here when you do have JJ.

Re: Checking and Calling my way to millions
 

Oops. I used 66 in an example above, not realizing the river was a 6. Meant to type something like 77 instead. But you know what i'm saying.

Re: Checking and Calling my way to millions
 

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Your pre-flop play should be coordinated with post-flop play. If you're going to reraise OOP with AT, and don't go to showdown when you hit an A, playing in a semi-short game, then you shouldn't have reraise to begin with.

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Although I think you bring up some good points, I think this one is awful. That statement is so general that it really doesn't help. There are often times when you will hit your A, yet you shouldn't see the showdown for a variety of reasons.

Re: Checking and Calling my way to millions
 

hi phish, do you think R! calls this flop with 66?

Re: Checking and Calling my way to millions
 

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i like the turn checkcall and i agree with not donking the river, thats just silly but i think a checkfold could be considered, no?

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definitely can't c/f this river, however, i would'nt 3bet preflop, you're out of position and not ahead of much. i would call pf, c/c, c/r turn

Re: Checking and Calling my way to millions
 

I really like it. Nice line to add to the repertoire. Would you play AJ the same?

Re: Checking and Calling my way to millions
 

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nice hand.

I think calling PR and playing fit or fold also has merits. Would you also 3 bet ATo?

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Re: Checking and Calling my way to millions
 

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hi phish, do you think R! calls this flop with 66?

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I would. Especially if I think I can play my opponent off JJ.

Re: Checking and Calling my way to millions
 

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He has to put you on a big Ace or PP after your preflop 3-bet. He knows he can't bluff you out of an Ace on this river and that you would have folded (or would fold) a PP on the turn/river. If he sees your turn check-call as a picked up flush draw then he knows his hand is no good. Basically, it seems that Raise! has no reason to bet this river unless he's fairly strong.

I think it's a check-fold.

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Sometimes people bet when they shouldn't. That's the whole point of checking and calling.

Re: Checking and Calling my way to millions
 

BTW, Raise! had KQ. I think check/call is right because he'll bet any ace on the river, and any big king will probably be bet too. Plus against good players even if it gets checked through on the river and he sees how I played TP I think that works out ok because playing OOP vs good players is going to help me get more free showdowns and tone down their value betting standards, and may help me win pots that way. I'd rather be spraying chips against players who I have a decent EV edge vs and who are not as competent.

Re: Checking and Calling my way to millions
 

youre gonna get shown Axs here enough to make it worth c/ring the river, but your feel for the game is better, maybe these guys are folding A6s utg? i doubt it, but you make the call.

Re: Checking and Calling my way to millions
 

this guy in particular definitley folds A6s and A7s UTG, and maybe A8s

Re: Checking and Calling my way to millions
 

"this guy in particular definitley folds A6s and A7s UTG, and maybe A8s"

ok well then schneids is in a very thin spot and should fold preflop, and it's not really close at all. or your assessment of utg is wrong. it's one or the other. 6 handed game. im guessing schneids is not wrong. were you utg?

Re: Checking and Calling my way to millions
 

his preflop 3bet is pretty thin, i would say its about ev neutral. Also Raise! was UTG+1, not UTG. (I wasnt trying to be a dick with my post, I was looking at your post without Schneids' right in front of me and forgot that he was UTG+1 and not UTG as you said). See my title if you want the reason why I wasnt lookin at your post and Schneids at the same time.

i would put his range about here, he may not raise K9s and he may raise A7s, who knows.

304,790,112 games 1.734 secs 175,772,844 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 50.4740 % 46.98% 03.49% { AcTc }
Hand 2: 49.5260 % 46.03% 03.49% { 66+, A8s+, K9s+, QTs+, JTs, A9o+, KTo+, QJo }

Re: Checking and Calling my way to millions
 

I LIKE

http://www.featuringdave.com/images/borat.jpg

Re: Checking and Calling my way to millions
 

"I wasnt trying to be a dick with my post,"

never thought you were,

anyway i think if he's folding A7s utg but raising it utg+1, that's just such a tough distinction. raising K9s but not raising A7s makes no sense to me so maybe a mush expert can explain why someone might do that. i would be inclined to raise A7s utg 6 handed in all but the toughest games so maybe i should shut up now...

anyway schneids 3 bet w/ ATs here gave me the impression utg (er i mean utg+1) would be raising with a wider range of hands here including several Axs combos if not all of them. and ive learned so far to always err on the side of schneids being right. but in order for schneids to be right here it means postflop he may missed a raise somewhere along the line, thus making him wrong..

got that?


back to shutting up.

Re: Checking and Calling my way to millions
 

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"I wasnt trying to be a dick with my post,"

never thought you were,

anyway i think if he's folding A7s utg but raising it utg+1, that's just such a tough distinction. raising K9s but not raising A7s makes no sense to me so maybe a mush expert can explain why someone might do that. i would be inclined to raise A7s utg 6 handed in all but the toughest games so maybe i should shut up now...

anyway schneids 3 bet w/ ATs here gave me the impression utg (er i mean utg+1) would be raising with a wider range of hands here including several Axs combos if not all of them. and ive learned so far to always err on the side of schneids being right. but in order for schneids to be right here it means postflop he may missed a raise somewhere along the line, thus making him wrong..

got that?


back to shutting up.

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in the hijack i think hes opening most Axs. i also agree with A7s > K9s. but i dont think that means he misplayed postflop. assuming any A will value bet (on the river thats tough. he can put schneider on Ax, KJ, or a smaller pair, and if eh has a weak Ax, theres not much value in betting. so maybe this isnt a given), theres no value in betting his AT. worse hands either fold or bet if checked to, better hands raise, and maybe this guys read is off and he tries to bluff.

Re: Checking and Calling my way to millions
 

"theres no value in betting his AT"

i agree, but i was saying schneids should c/r the river. and then we got into this discussion about what hands villain could have. and now im back to saying if schneids cant c/r the river here and enjoy getting paid off nicely by Ax as well as having something like kings up just call, he shouldnt be 3 betting preflop because then villain's hand range is too narrow for hero to be picking a fight with him out of position.

Re: Checking and Calling my way to millions
 

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"theres no value in betting his AT"

i agree, but i was saying schneids should c/r the river. and then we got into this discussion about what hands villain could have. and now im back to saying if schneids cant c/r the river here and enjoy getting paid off nicely by Ax as well as having something like kings up just call, he shouldnt be 3 betting preflop because then villain's hand range is too narrow for hero to be picking a fight with him out of position.


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checkraising might be right, but there are some hands, JTs and KQ, that are worse hands preflop that now beat him. also, smaller pairs wont bet or pay off a bet so they are taken out of the equation completely. so while i think there is some correlation between preflop and the river, i dont think its as strong as you make it out to be.

Re: Checking and Calling my way to millions
 

[ QUOTE ]
"theres no value in betting his AT"

i agree, but i was saying schneids should c/r the river. and then we got into this discussion about what hands villain could have. and now im back to saying if schneids cant c/r the river here and enjoy getting paid off nicely by Ax as well as having something like kings up just call, he shouldnt be 3 betting preflop because then villain's hand range is too narrow for hero to be picking a fight with him out of position.


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Hey mike,

I keep forgetting about this thread, sorry.

I think your thoughts are good and what I should do if the turn and river are not broadway cards. Given that the turn was a broadway card, it hits a lot of the hands that R! is peeling with, yet he's good enough that bet/calling sucks too because he's going to bluff at close enough to the right frequency that I'm going to be in dicey spots (he's not rockish enough that i can just fold, and he isn't aggro enough that i can just call down 100% and feel happy with it).

Re: Checking and Calling my way to millions
 

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i would put his range about here, he may not raise K9s and he may raise A7s, who knows.

304,790,112 games 1.734 secs 175,772,844 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 50.4740 % 46.98% 03.49% { AcTc }
Hand 2: 49.5260 % 46.03% 03.49% { 66+, A8s+, K9s+, QTs+, JTs, A9o+, KTo+, QJo }

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this opening range for him UTG+1 looks pretty reasonable and close to what it is in reality.

FWIW I 3-bet as much to try to quickly win the pot postflop as I did for value.

For comparison purposes, lets say that Steve95 was feeling super tight one day and adhered to these raising standards from UTG+1, but played his normal style postflop. I'd be much much less likely to take the initiative vs him, because the initiative is not worth as much against him and he is less likely to give credit for a hand and just fold when he misses. VS R!, however, if the hand hot-and-cold is about 50-50 vs R!, I think it's gains more value with actual postflop playing by having the initiative, since he is more likely to give me credit for a strong hand.