Speeding and punishment
 

I think most of us -- at least those that own a car -- speed on a not too infrequent basis. I am interested in what people think about these matters:

(1) How much more punishment (if any) should a person receive for killing someone in a car accident (vehicular manslaughter) when driving 10 mph over the speed limit than driving at the speed limit?

(2) What punishment should a person receive (if any) for driving 10 mph over the speed limit?

(3) What differentiates someone who regularly speeds when driving from a common criminal (say, someone who deals drugs on a city street for a living)?

Re: Speeding and punishment
 

1) just add the speeding ticket..

2) just the speeding ticket, whatever it may be

3) with the exception of excessive speeds, speeding can be much more easily reasoned as not dangerous (and possibly true) and is widely accepted as not very dangerous, whereas drugs are widely accepted as dangerous.

---speeding penalties don't matter unless they are widely enforced, which they won't be. Hey, if there were some conspiracy on a highway you could get everyone going 100 mph without a problem.

everyone knows that the real speed limit is to not go visibly faster than everyone around you when a cop could be watching.

Re: Speeding and punishment
 

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everyone knows that the real speed limit is to not go visibly faster than everyone around you when a cop could be watching.

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Tell that to the police in Redmond, WA. 55 in a 30, my ass. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: Speeding and punishment
 

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everyone knows that the real speed limit is to not go visibly faster than everyone around you when a cop could be watching.

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Tell that to the police in Redmond, WA. 55 in a 30, my ass. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

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**check one off on this month's quota**

Re: Speeding and punishment
 

people speed for lots of reasons and risk others lives for it. a fitting punishment for the casual speeder is to make him sit in his car pulled over for two hours.
plus insurance costs for having a ticket or two go way way up.

Re: Speeding and punishment
 

"3) with the exception of excessive speeds, speeding can be much more easily reasoned as not dangerous (and possibly true) and is widely accepted as not very dangerous, whereas drugs are widely accepted as dangerous."

I disagree, especially depending on what drugs. Furthermore, the people who take those drugs are only putting themselves at immediate risk in health terms (they may be indirectly putting other people at risk due to teh possibiolity of addiction and having to turn to crime or whatever, but that's mainly a consequence of the illegality of the drugs), while the speeder is putting other people at increased risk.

Re: Speeding and punishment
 

Its something of a falacy that so many people die due to speeding. I would be curious to see the actual numbers of people who died due to excessive speed vs. DUI vs. accidents that occurred at normal speeds.

But it does make for good politics. For instance, City of Los Angeles has introduced law to severly punish street races, including the impound and selling of the street racers cars, without charges even having to have been filed. Thats right, your car can be sold even if you are found not guilty, and you will not recieve compensation for the car.

So how many deaths in City of Los Angeles each year due to street racing?

20. At most. Usually less.

As way of comparison, Los Angeles has 350 dedicated gang enforcement officers. 3% of the officers in LAPD. There are 20,000+ gang members in Los Angeles. They are responsible for in the neighborhood of 800+ deaths per year. But somehow, the city simply does not have the money to add more gang enforcement officers.

Not sure what I am missing here.

Penalties for speeding are currently sufficient.

Re: Speeding and punishment
 

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1) just add the speeding ticket..

2) just the speeding ticket, whatever it may be

3) with the exception of excessive speeds, speeding can be much more easily reasoned as not dangerous (and possibly true) and is widely accepted as not very dangerous, whereas drugs are widely accepted as dangerous.

---speeding penalties don't matter unless they are widely enforced, which they won't be. Hey, if there were some conspiracy on a highway you could get everyone going 100 mph without a problem.

everyone knows that the real speed limit is to not go visibly faster than everyone around you when a cop could be watching.

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Speeding both increases the frequency of accidents by reducing the time we have for our reflexes to act in those rare instances where something unusual is happenning that could lead to an accident, but accidents are also much more likely to be fatal as speeds go up (due to the increased likelihood of a high impact collision).

I do agree that there is a perception that speeding is not dangerous and drugs are very dangerous, but is that a reflection of actual facts? Or is it because most people who think that way speed regularly (and now conveniently have a rationalization for their behavior), but don't use drugs.

I think it is clear that speeding is much more dangerous than recreational drug use. There are other aspects of drugs than recreational use, and I don't want to get sidetracked about how dangerous drugs are.

The point is that speeding IS dangerous and it IS illegal, but people rarely have the same anger over it as a crime as they do other crimes, such as drug use. People would never go for a "3 strikes" law that gave mandatory life imprisonment to every caught speeding three times. Is there a good reason behind that, or is it simply due to the fact that there is some chance such a law could be applied to them or somebody they know and love?

As a side note, there are ways that speeding laws could be enforced better. They typically involve issues with privacy rights and I am not sure they are necessarily a good idea. My only point is that while it is certainly true that speeding laws are not enforced very seriously, they certainly could be in principle.

Re: Speeding and punishment
 

The system of traffic enforcement in the United States (and I'll wager anywhere that has as vigorous a system as the ours) is little more than a giant revenue generation racket. It's a wonderful racket because it can easily be sold to the public as being beneficial.

You can easily understand that it's a scam by looking at how traffic enforcement often works. Patrol cars are often unmarked, often hide in shadows, behind trees and roadside signs, etc, so that they may surprise unwitting motorists. If the point of speed enforcement were truly to slow down the average speed of the traffic, the patrol cars would be extremely conspicuous, constantly lit up like Christmas trees so that motorists would know they were there and a ticket could be imminent. Clearly, the object is not to reduce the speed of traffic, but to snag 1 car in thousands so that their $300 to $800 per hour of revenue can be generated.

Furthermore, once you get to traffic court, you can again see that reducing speeding is not the object. Tickets are routinely "pled down" so that the drivers' insurance rates (and hence their ability to stay on the road, speeding, and generating revenue) is least likely to be affected, while of course the fines and court costs remain the same.

Quotas and "ticket drives" are common in law enforcement. Work zone signage often goes up weeks (sometimes months) before construction projects begin and after they end, in order to extend the duration that increased fines can be made.

Even the construction of highways is designed to maximize enforcement revenue. Lanes are made wider and wider with the justification that this makes them safer. In actuality the wider the lane, the safer the driver feels psychologically, and the faster the average driver will drive. Meanwhile the higher speeds increase the frequency of accidents and their severity (because the energy of a collision goes as the square of the speed).

Traffic enforcement is probably the archetypical local government revenue racket. I've talked with several police officers who openly admit it.

Re: Speeding and punishment
 

"You can easily understand that it's a scheme by looking at how traffic enforcement often works. Patrol cars are often unmarked, often hide in shadows, behind trees and roadside signs, etc, so that they may surprise unwitting motorists. If the point of speed enforcement were truly to slow down the average speed of the traffic, the patrol cars would be extremely conspicuous, constantly lit up like Christmas trees so that motorists would know they were there and a ticket could be imminent. Clearly, the object is not to reduce the speed of traffic, but to snag 1 car in thousands so that their $300 to $800 per hour of revenue can be generated."

Hardly, unless there were enough traffic cops to monitor all traffic all of the time. If they didn't stay hidden, people would simply speed when they weren't there and hide otherwise. If they stay hidden there's a possibility that you're of being caught at any time, and hence have an incentive to never speed.

Re: Speeding and punishment
 

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Hardly, unless there were enough traffic cops to monitor all traffic all of the time. If they didn't stay hidden, people would simply speed when they weren't there and hide otherwise. If they stay hidden there's a possibility that you're of being caught at any time, and hence have an incentive to never speed.

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And how well does that work?\

Edit: But you do have a good point. It's still a racket, though.

Re: Speeding and punishment
 

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The point is that speeding IS dangerous and it IS illegal, but people rarely have the same anger over it as a crime as they do other crimes, such as drug use. People would never go for a "3 strikes" law that gave mandatory life imprisonment to every caught speeding three times. Is there a good reason behind that, or is it simply due to the fact that there is some chance such a law could be applied to them or somebody they know and love?


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Do you know how many people die each year in the United States due to accidents caused by speeding? I don't, but am very curious to find out. I'm guessing that the number is MUCH lower than anyone here would guess

Re: Speeding and punishment
 

While licensed activities such as driving and surgery do not fall under the normal provisions of criminal negligence, such provisions and common law emanating therefrom can give us an indication where this is likely to go.

Most criminal negligence provisions hold "wanton and reckless" behaviour as the standard of proof on the Crown's part (or the People, in the US). So in reality, the issue is whether you were acting recklessly. If you're driving 10mph over the limit but safely, that's much less troublesome than driving 10 under and like a moron.

The only thing differentiating between the drug dealer and the driver is whatever the statute makes it out to be.

The first thing you have to understand is that Criminal Law is probably the worst mechanism on earth for enforcing morality. It is designed to protect people and institutions from each other, not morals. In other words, murder isn't a crime because it's wrong, it's a crime because we can't allow people to murder each other and expect a state to function properly.

Re: Speeding and punishment
 

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Hardly, unless there were enough traffic cops to monitor all traffic all of the time. If they didn't stay hidden, people would simply speed when they weren't there and hide otherwise. If they stay hidden there's a possibility that you're of being caught at any time, and hence have an incentive to never speed.

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And how well does that work?\

Edit: But you do have a good point. It's still a racket, though.

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Yeah right, there are about 15 places in my town that a cop could hide. There are only three patrol cars in the area. Let them hide all they want, they'll still never catch me because they are too dumb.

Re: Speeding and punishment
 

The bestpart about speedingis that you dont even have to be speeding to geta ticket. In NY there is such a thing as too fast for road conditions. This means if your doing the posted limit in the snow/rain/dirt whatever, they can pull you over and ticket you for driving too fast. How great of a racket is that?

Re: Speeding and punishment
 

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"3) with the exception of excessive speeds, speeding can be much more easily reasoned as not dangerous (and possibly true) and is widely accepted as not very dangerous, whereas drugs are widely accepted as dangerous."

I disagree, especially depending on what drugs. Furthermore, the people who take those drugs are only putting themselves at immediate risk in health terms (they may be indirectly putting other people at risk due to teh possibiolity of addiction and having to turn to crime or whatever, but that's mainly a consequence of the illegality of the drugs), while the speeder is putting other people at increased risk.

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I'm just saying that the average person would choose going 5 or 10 mph over the speed limit as less of a wrong than snorting some coke

Re: Speeding and punishment
 

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"3) with the exception of excessive speeds, speeding can be much more easily reasoned as not dangerous (and possibly true) and is widely accepted as not very dangerous, whereas drugs are widely accepted as dangerous."

I disagree, especially depending on what drugs. Furthermore, the people who take those drugs are only putting themselves at immediate risk in health terms (they may be indirectly putting other people at risk due to teh possibiolity of addiction and having to turn to crime or whatever, but that's mainly a consequence of the illegality of the drugs), while the speeder is putting other people at increased risk.

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I'm just saying that the average person would choose going 5 or 10 mph over the speed limit as less of a wrong than snorting some coke

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If proper care is taken, neither of these things are wrong at all.

Re: Speeding and punishment
 

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"3) with the exception of excessive speeds, speeding can be much more easily reasoned as not dangerous (and possibly true) and is widely accepted as not very dangerous, whereas drugs are widely accepted as dangerous."

I disagree, especially depending on what drugs. Furthermore, the people who take those drugs are only putting themselves at immediate risk in health terms (they may be indirectly putting other people at risk due to teh possibiolity of addiction and having to turn to crime or whatever, but that's mainly a consequence of the illegality of the drugs), while the speeder is putting other people at increased risk.

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I'm just saying that the average person would choose going 5 or 10 mph over the speed limit as less of a wrong than snorting some coke

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If proper care is taken, neither of these things are wrong at all.

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if proper care is taken then i would argue that drugs are not wrong (this would mean restraining yourself then shooting up) but speeding would be dangerous and wrong although minutely

Re: Speeding and punishment
 

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if proper care is taken then i would argue that drugs are not wrong (this would mean restraining yourself then shooting up)

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What, did you see one of those propaganda videos of cocaine-crazed lunatics running around attacking people, raping women, and wreaking general havoc?

What I meant by "proper care" is that when using recreational substances, one must be careful that they don't use them too often and allow them to take over their lives, because the effects on the people close to them could be devestating.

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but speeding would be dangerous and wrong although minutely

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If they passed a law that reduced the speed limit on a particular highway from 65 to 55, and that law takes effect on Sunday, then driving 65 on that highway would be safe and right on Saturday , but dangerous and wrong on Monday?

Whatever arbirary speed limit the government decides to impose doesn't dictate what's safe. Weather, traffic conditions, car type, driving skill, and the general features of a particular strech of road do.

Re: Speeding and punishment
 

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if proper care is taken then i would argue that drugs are not wrong (this would mean restraining yourself then shooting up)

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What, did you see one of those propaganda videos of cocaine-crazed lunatics running around attacking people, raping women, and wreaking general havoc?

What I meant by "proper care" is that when using recreational substances, one must be careful that they don't use them too often and allow them to take over their lives, because the effects on the people close to them could be devestating.

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but speeding would be dangerous and wrong although minutely

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If they passed a law that reduced the speed limit on a particular highway from 65 to 55, and that law takes effect on Sunday, then driving 65 on that highway would be safe and right on Saturday , but dangerous and wrong on Monday?

Whatever arbirary speed limit the government decides to impose doesn't dictate what's safe. Weather, traffic conditions, car type, driving skill, and the general features of a particular strech of road do.

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please..you have to admit at least some irrational behavior can be expected from a person using drugs or alcohol

by my commen,t i only meant that a person using drugs (responsibly) can be held to only harming himself rather than speeding which cannot be guaranteed not to harm someone else... and this is not with respect to speed limits, i mean excessive speeds for the area such as 60 mph in a residential area

Re: Speeding and punishment
 

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The point is that speeding IS dangerous and it IS illegal, but people rarely have the same anger over it as a crime as they do other crimes, such as drug use. People would never go for a "3 strikes" law that gave mandatory life imprisonment to every caught speeding three times. Is there a good reason behind that, or is it simply due to the fact that there is some chance such a law could be applied to them or somebody they know and love?


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Do you know how many people die each year in the United States due to accidents caused by speeding? I don't, but am very curious to find out. I'm guessing that the number is MUCH lower than anyone here would guess

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I suspect that in almost all automobile accident fatalities, one of the drivers was driving above the speed limit. (Because many people drive above the speed limit a lot of the time.)

The relevant statistic would be how many accidents occurred which would not have occurred had the drivers been driving at or below the speed limit.

Also, the matter is complicated because sometimes people are speeding and also under the influence of alcohol and/or drugs. In that case, both speeding and dulled reflexes may have contributed to the fatality. So speeding cannot be separated from DUI and other factors.

Re: Speeding and punishment
 

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please..you have to admit at least some irrational behavior can be expected from a person using drugs or alcohol


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Sure, but there is no shotage of irrational behavior from your average sober person.

Re: Speeding and punishment
 

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please..you have to admit at least some irrational behavior can be expected from a person using drugs or alcohol


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Sure, but there is no shotage of irrational behavior from your average sober person.

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touche

but that doesn't change the fact that there is at least some chance of harm coming to an innocent person due to someone else's use of drugs

Re: Speeding and punishment
 

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please..you have to admit at least some irrational behavior can be expected from a person using drugs or alcohol


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Sure, but there is no shotage of irrational behavior from your average sober person.

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touche

but that doesn't change the fact that there is at least some chance of harm coming to an innocent person due to someone else's use of drugs

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Not to get too far off topic, but the harm a person can cause under the influence of drugs largely depends on the context. If they are getting high in their basement, it's pretty unlikely they are a danger to anyone. If they go out and get high, and then decide to drive somewhere, they might pose a grave danger to the community at large.

Re: Speeding and punishment
 

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please..you have to admit at least some irrational behavior can be expected from a person using drugs or alcohol


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Sure, but there is no shotage of irrational behavior from your average sober person.

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touche

but that doesn't change the fact that there is at least some chance of harm coming to an innocent person due to someone else's use of drugs

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Not to get too far off topic, but the harm a person can cause under the influence of drugs largely depends on the context. If they are getting high in their basement, it's pretty unlikely they are a danger to anyone. If they go out and get high, and then decide to drive somewhere, they might pose a grave danger to the community at large.

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unfortunatley the "only aloud to smoke up in your basement" law probably wouldn't work out... driving would probably make up over 90% of the harm caused to innocent persons

Re: Speeding and punishment
 

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please..you have to admit at least some irrational behavior can be expected from a person using drugs or alcohol


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Sure, but there is no shotage of irrational behavior from your average sober person.

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touche

but that doesn't change the fact that there is at least some chance of harm coming to an innocent person due to someone else's use of drugs

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Not to get too far off topic, but the harm a person can cause under the influence of drugs largely depends on the context. If they are getting high in their basement, it's pretty unlikely they are a danger to anyone. If they go out and get high, and then decide to drive somewhere, they might pose a grave danger to the community at large.

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unfortunatley the "only aloud to smoke up in your basement" law probably wouldn't work out... driving would probably make up over 90% of the harm caused to innocent persons

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You could make it criminal to drive under the influence of drugs (with possibly very steep punishments) without making it illegal to use drugs.

For better or worse, that is how alcohol is handled in this country.

Re: Speeding and punishment
 

Speed enforcement is primarily a revenue generating measure, and secondarily a safety measure. Speed limits on most roads and streets are set artificially low to ensure a large supply of speeders so the traffic cops can stay busy all day writing tickets to generate the revenue to pay for the traffic cops, judges and prosecuting attorneys. On most moderately trafficked roads and streets, obeying the speed limit is actually less safe than moving with the flow of traffic, which is usually 7-10 mph above the posted limit. Driving the speed limit will force other drivers to change lanes to pass you, increasing the probability of an accident.

Re: Speeding and punishment
 

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Driving the speed limit will force other drivers to change lanes to pass you, increasing the probability of an accident.

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The direction of causation here is a bit off.

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Driving the speed limit will force other drivers to change lanes to pass you, increasing the probability of an accident.

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The direction of causation here is a bit off.

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How so?

In any event, I contend that, in most cases, moving at the prevailing speed of traffic is safer than moving slower and creating a bottleneck. There are exceptions. I find that often in bad weather conditions (hard rain, snowpacked or icy roads, fog, etc.), the prevailing speed is too fast, and will move to the right lane and drive at a speed that gives me a reasonable ability to kepp control of my vehicle and respond to an emergency.