Limping/Spewing with 55
 

Table was playing pretty loose up until this hand, so I limped in and got raised instead...

Button is 21 VPIP 9.5%PFR and 2 AGF over whopping 920 hands.

SB is 28 VPIP 6.7% PFR and 1.5 AGF over 120 hands.

Ultimate Bet 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, SB calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (7 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, SB calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, Button calls, SB calls.

Turn: (8 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>SB checks, Hero ??

I bet out with my OESD, and get raised by the PFR which is pretty standard for him. I decided to 3-bet, and now I feel like I'm spewing. (Of course I didn't at the time) Comments?

Re: Limping/Spewing with 55
 

Without SB, it would be spewing, with SB calling away, it's pot building. It just didn't work out this time.

Re: Limping/Spewing with 55
 

Preflop fine...I'd call the raise just to see but I'm trying to hit trips

Flop - perfect you at least got a draw. Depending on action I'm check calling. There is no way I'm leading because I want to see a cheap turn at least.

3bet is spewing, especially since you already have a SB who is willing to call the reraise cold

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I bet out with my OESD, and get raised by the PFR which is pretty standard for him

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Seems like if you thought this was standard procedure for this guy then you would definitely not want to lead out. I don't think you are hurting yourself if it checks through and give a free card. By allowing him to raise you force 2Cold to the SB.

Re: Limping/Spewing with 55
 

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Without SB, it would be spewing, with SB calling away, it's pot building. It just didn't work out this time.

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Your building a pot with a weak hand against two people who are willing to call you. All you are really managing to do is get yourself tied to a pot that you just can't let go of. You'll find yourself on the river with a decent pot, four overcards and calling "just to see"

Bad plan to me.

Re: Limping/Spewing with 55
 

I agree with your flop decision entirely. The button's raise probably represents some UI overs or an above-the-board PP. I am pretty unsure about the small blind's holding here, though. Possibly a higher PP. Nonetheless, I think with the OESD this line is good.

The turn card is not too scary, as it only likely helps two raising-ish hands AT and KT. I would probably lead here again.

Re: Limping/Spewing with 55
 

*grunch*

I'm torn on this; you are much more likely up against AK, AQ, KQ, etc. than you are a made pair, so I don't think it's so bad to take the lead in this hand. I would continue to lead the betting on the turn and river unless you are raised again, but in any case you've got good odds to call down your OESD by the time you get to the turn.

On the other hand I think the play on the flop is not what I would have done at all. If I were really interested in taking control of the hand I would have check-raised the flop instead of betting out.

Re: Limping/Spewing with 55
 

c/r on the flop, if button 3-bets, call and c/f the turn UI. Otherwise lead the turn, call if raised, and c/c the river if its HU, otherwise I would c/f if SB is still around.

I encourage c/r the flop to gauge your opponents strength, if they 3-bet you and you improve on the turn, you are likely to extract a few more bets from them. c/r may also force overcard draws to fold on the turn.

Re: Limping/Spewing with 55
 

There's a chance that we hit our hand and end up with the suckers straight. I would put Button on two overcards or an overpair. I don't think the 55's are good. I'm not sure what SB is on, but I'm not sure he knows either. We have 6 clean outs (2 Fives and 4 3's) we'll count the 8's as only two. That gives us 8 outs. We're gettig 2:1 on our bet and we're probably 2.1:1 to make the hand by the river. With implied odds we're safe building this pot.

Re: Limping/Spewing with 55
 

The fives are dirtier than an old man's underpants.

Re: Limping/Spewing with 55
 

I think leading out here when you have a read on the PFR that he'll auto-raise with OCs is a good move to protect your hand. I'd be slightly perturbed when SB called 2 cold unless I had a read that he's a chaser.

I'd call instead of 3 bet the flop then donk the turn if a safe-ish card fell. I do this to stop SB and Button getting a free look at the river if they have overcards.

If raised on the turn, call and c/f river UI. If they call the turn, c/c UI.

If one of my outs hits on the river then b/3bet if it's a 3, otherwise b/c. I don't like a cr here as there will be a 4-straight on board and it may well get checked through.


I hate hands like these -- never sure where I am.

Re: Limping/Spewing with 55
 

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c/r on the flop, if button 3-bets, call and c/f the turn UI.

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Too many outs to beat an overpair so we can't fold the turn.

Re: Limping/Spewing with 55
 

Grunch:

With the stats you are showing, 3 betting this holding on the flop IS spewing. b/c the flop, c/c the turn, c/f the riv UI.

Re: Limping/Spewing with 55
 

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I'd call instead of 3 bet the flop then donk the turn if a safe-ish card fell. I do this to stop SB and Button getting a free look at the river if they have overcards.

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I don't think overcards are the problem here. You have odds to c/c the turn and should c/f 2 back to you here. Betting isn't protecting 55 here, 55 is more likely not the best hand. We WANT a free card!

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I hate hands like these -- never sure where I am.

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Agreed. That's why not betting will tell us more or help us improve on the cheap.

Re: Limping/Spewing with 55
 

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I'd call instead of 3 bet the flop then donk the turn if a safe-ish card fell. I do this to stop SB and Button getting a free look at the river if they have overcards.

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I don't think overcards are the problem here. You have odds to c/c the turn and should c/f 2 back to you here. Betting isn't protecting 55 here, 55 is more likely not the best hand. We WANT a free card!

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OP intimated that Button was a flop auto-raiser after a PFR so in this hand I think there's a reasonable chance he has UI OCs.

I admit, I don't like SB's coldcall on the flop but absent a read I can't give him credit for a made hand either. Should I?

Re: Limping/Spewing with 55
 

Turn: (8 BB) T (3 players)SB checks, <font color="red"> Hero Bets </font> , Button folds, <font color="red">SB raises </font> Hero??

I bet out because I put Button on UI OC's I'm guessing that's the case. Now I get CR buy the SB. I'm thinking he has two pair or a set. Safe to fold? or Call and C/F the river UI?

Re: Limping/Spewing with 55
 

If you think SB has two pair or a set then all your straight outs are good and you are easily getting correct odds to call.

Re: Limping/Spewing with 55
 

:grunch:

Yea you are spewing on the flop. You may only have the OESD, so you want to keep as many people around as possible. You were lucky SB called 2-bets on the flop.

Re: Limping/Spewing with 55
 

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I'd call instead of 3 bet the flop then donk the turn if a safe-ish card fell. I do this to stop SB and Button getting a free look at the river if they have overcards.

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I don't think overcards are the problem here. You have odds to c/c the turn and should c/f 2 back to you here. Betting isn't protecting 55 here, 55 is more likely not the best hand. We WANT a free card!

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OP intimated that Button was a flop auto-raiser after a PFR so in this hand I think there's a reasonable chance he has UI OCs.

I admit, I don't like SB's coldcall on the flop but absent a read I can't give him credit for a made hand either. Should I?

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1. Stats do not support the statement that Button is an "auto raiser" no matter what the OP said. The cold call is another good signal to slow down.

2. What do you consider a made hand here? What do you beat here UI? IMO, not very much. You ARE NOT protecting a 55 here.

Re: Limping/Spewing with 55
 

Why do you think the 55's are dirty on the flop? Only an 85 or a set of 6's or 7's have them covered if the turn brings us a set.

The turn adds 98 to the list of worries and is possible holding for SB.

Why do you consider the 5's extremely dirty on the flop and how much would you discount them since you think they're dirty.

Re: Limping/Spewing with 55
 

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Why do you think the 55's are dirty on the flop? Only an 85 or a set of 6's or 7's have them covered if the turn brings us a set.

The turn adds 98 to the list of worries and is possible holding for SB.

Why do you consider the 5's extremely dirty on the flop and how much would you discount them since you think they're dirty.

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The 5s are dirty because they fill a gutshot str8 for any 8 or 3 and completely counterfeit our str8 draws. While 8 or 3 is not a very likely holding by either villian, it certainly is possible. I could see 88, 33, or 87s here. How much to discount them? Call them 1 or even 1.5 outs?

Re: Limping/Spewing with 55
 

Tough hand. Not sure about the flop 3bet, I might like a check-raise better to see how he reacts to it. If 3bet I'm putting him on an overpair, in which case I have to continue, and I'll go passive. If he'll autoraise UIOC's on the flop, I'm not sure I like leading/3betting, because we want to see the turn and river here, and it would suck to have this capped. I'm more interested in if he's got the stones to re-raise a flop checkraise, which even very aggressive players have a hard time doing w/ UIOC.

Re: Limping/Spewing with 55
 

grunch

I think your straight and set outs are clean here, and I also think it is likely that your pair won't hold up to SD.
Based on this I don't see the point of betting/raising as you don't have the pot equity with two opps, and you cant play for a free look at the river since you're out of position. I would just call both flop and river.

Re: Limping/Spewing with 55
 

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1. Stats do not support the statement that Button is an "auto raiser" no matter what the OP said.

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Overall stats can't disprove the OP's read of an opponent's actions in one specific situation I don't think.

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2. What do you consider a made hand here? What do you beat here UI? IMO, not very much. You ARE NOT protecting a 55 here.

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Well, I think we beat Button's OCs about 2/3 of the time. Looking at SB's stats, he's not a calling station postflop, so I concede I maybe underestimated what he could be holding to coldcall 2 on the flop (might be results-orientated thinking on my part because we now know SB checkraised hero's turn bet).

Re: Limping/Spewing with 55
 

*grunch*

I'd take the free card on the turn and if the river is a non-scary brick I'd call down. If it's scary then it's read based. If you hit the straight then profit [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

BBB

Re: Limping/Spewing with 55
 

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Too many outs to beat an overpair so we can't fold the turn.

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Good point, c/c the turn and c/c the river if no scare cards come.

Re: Limping/Spewing with 55
 

I think you can check/call this flop, and probably the turn also UI. By betting out, you will cause overcards to play unprofitably, but you're also probably isolating against a better hand. There's no point to 3-betting here in either case. Check/call the turn as played.