This Hand Got Ugly Quick - Thoughts
 

MP2 is very loose and pretty passive (60/10/.65) but that's not a really strong read (30 hands).

Had a strong read on the BB that he was loose and aggressive. Was suprised and disappointed when he folded preflop...

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. UTG+2 posts a blind of $0.50. CO posts a blind of $0.50.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG+2 (poster) checks, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG+2 calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG+2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG+2 folds, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 3-bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (7.25 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (9.25 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP2 checks, Hero checks.

Re: This Hand Got Ugly Quick - Thoughts
 

I would fold:

(1) preflop,
(2) to MP2's flop bet
(3) to MP2's 3-bet
(4) to MP2's turn bet.

Re: This Hand Got Ugly Quick - Thoughts
 

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I would fold:

(4) to MP2's turn bet.


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[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] with 6 probably clean outs getting 8 to 1 odds?

Re: This Hand Got Ugly Quick - Thoughts
 

you're right, i take back #4.

Re: This Hand Got Ugly Quick - Thoughts
 

Fine i take back #3 too

Re: This Hand Got Ugly Quick - Thoughts
 

I thought raising the flop was worth a shot given the size of the pot and the (small) number of opponents. I probably should've folded at #2 though.

Re: This Hand Got Ugly Quick - Thoughts
 

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MP2 is very loose and pretty passive (60/10/.65)

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Preflop: Hero is Button with 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. UTG+2 posts a blind of $0.50. CO posts a blind of $0.50.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG+2 (poster) checks, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls,

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What the hell were you thinking?

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Flop: (8.50 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG+2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>

[/ QUOTE ]
What the hell were you thinking?

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UTG+2 folds, MP2 3-bets, Hero calls.

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What the hell were you thinking?

This hand makes no sense to me whatsoever. Did you think Mr. Passive's preflop raise, flop bet and 3-bet screamed "I don't have a hand?"

Re: This Hand Got Ugly Quick - Thoughts
 

Hm ... In rings games ... I used to make this raise, but I usually fold in these situations now ... I'm now wondering if I play too weak-tight with these med. pocket pairs. On the flop H/U I might be more tempted to make this play ...

What raising hands are we ahead of?: AK, AJ, AT, KJ, KT? Am i limiting his range too much?

The passive read + 3-way pot makes me fold ... but i'd be interested what others think since I might be too W/T here.

Re: This Hand Got Ugly Quick - Thoughts
 

I'm folding every street but the turn.

Re: This Hand Got Ugly Quick - Thoughts
 

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I would fold:

(1) preflop,

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OP already explained that he thought BB was coming along and would increase his implied odds if he hit his set.

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(2) to MP2's flop bet

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It's very likely that this flop missed MP2 completely.

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MP2's 3-bet

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No arguments here. Though calling and folding the turn UI is not a huge mistake.

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to MP2's turn bet.

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Hero now has 6 outs and getting odds to call.

Re: This Hand Got Ugly Quick - Thoughts
 

Preflop I'm on the button. I've got a pair. True, the pot is only laying 5.5 to 2 currently, but will likely have 2 more SB before we see the flop. I guess it's marginal but I don't think it's that unreasonable to try and flop a set.

On the flop the pot contained 9 bets when it got to me. The flop didn't seem very good for high cards and my read was only for 30 hands. I certainly wouldn't put it past this guy to make a continuation bet on the flop after only reading him for "pretty passive". Again, probably a bad play but was it really that unreasonable. If so, tell me...

Re: This Hand Got Ugly Quick - Thoughts
 

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I would fold:

(1) preflop,

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OP already explained that he thought BB was coming along and would increase his implied odds if he hit his set.

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That's not good enough. The fact that he's LAG means we could quite possibly be paying four to see the flop. They're gonna have to go to war something fierce if we're going to make up however much, particularly after adjusting for the 20-25% of the time your set loses.

Or he could fold, as we saw.

Re: This Hand Got Ugly Quick - Thoughts
 

Call for 1 more bet on flop, and fold UI on turn. Even if you have the best hand at the moment, it is very vulnerable to overcards.

Re: This Hand Got Ugly Quick - Thoughts
 

::grunch::

This hand was ugly from the word go... Pocket 6's are not a hand I normally cold-call with. Then, you don't hit your set on the flop, but raise anyway with 3rd pair. Then another card he could pair with to beat your pair hits the turn, and you spew^H^H^H^H call again. Finally, a scare card for him hits on the river, saving you the agony of spending yet another BB to see him turn over a Queen.

In summary -
Pre-flop - fold
Flop - fold
Turn - fold
River - You might as well bet here and see if he believes you were holding out for an Ace all this time. If your karma is good, he'll fold his KQ.

Re: This Hand Got Ugly Quick - Thoughts
 

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop I'm on the button. I've got a pair. True, the pot is only laying 5.5 to 2 currently, but will likely have 2 more SB before we see the flop. I guess it's marginal but I don't think it's that unreasonable to try and flop a set.

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What are the odds of flopping a set given a pair in your hand? (Hint: it's not 2.75:1)

Actually, never mind - are you on the Party $.50/$1 tables right now, and if so, what is your screen name?

Re: This Hand Got Ugly Quick - Thoughts
 

I think I would have folded on the flop. Sixes are lower that second pair and a lot of overcards can come. Maybe if you had 9s or better. Does that make sense? I am still reasonably new to the game.

Re: This Hand Got Ugly Quick - Thoughts
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Preflop I'm on the button. I've got a pair. True, the pot is only laying 5.5 to 2 currently, but will likely have 2 more SB before we see the flop. I guess it's marginal but I don't think it's that unreasonable to try and flop a set.

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What are the odds of flopping a set given a pair in your hand? (Hint: it's not 2.75:1)

Actually, never mind - are you on the Party $.50/$1 tables right now, and if so, what is your screen name?

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My name is Pedigree5. Based on the fact that you advocate folding on the turn with 6 outs getting over 8 to 1 odds please add me to your buddy list and feel free to sit down at any table I'm at.

Re: This Hand Got Ugly Quick - Thoughts
 

i know you explained preflop, but i don't buy it. you have a poster who might fold and you need more than 1 other person in the hand.

i actually don't mind the initial flop raise as JJ/TT would have difficulty calling as well as AJ and lower. AK would fold the turn UI, but once he 3-bets, i think you're screwed and would have folded there as you have ~2.5 outs and need to get ~18:1 to call, which you're not.

a LP isn't bluffing a hand you beat when he 3-bets here. what did he have? KK i'm guessing.

Re: This Hand Got Ugly Quick - Thoughts
 

If he's behind on the flop, then he doesn't have the odds to chase the last two sixes: calling the flop with the intention of c/f the turn UI is bad.

I fold this preflop. Calling is horrible. You simply don't want to play sixes in a raised three-way pot (which was your intention).

The only other option is reraising to knock out the blinds, get it heads up with position, and take control of the hand. You're pushing a slim advantage over overcards, and you might be getting slaughtered by a better pair, so it's an easy laydown. Just let this go, and wait for better spots.

Re: This Hand Got Ugly Quick - Thoughts
 

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i know you explained preflop, but i don't buy it. you have a poster who might fold and you need more than 1 other person in the hand.

i actually don't mind the initial flop raise as JJ/TT would have difficulty calling as well as AJ and lower. AK would fold the turn UI, but once he 3-bets, i think you're screwed and would have folded there as you have ~2.5 outs and need to get ~18:1 to call, which you're not.

a LP isn't bluffing a hand you beat when he 3-bets here. what did he have? KK i'm guessing.

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I was hoping to get two other people to come along (making the pot 7.5 bets not including the 2 that I'm calling) to play a four-handed, raised pot with 1.5 SB of dead money in it. It almost worked out like that but not quite. I agree about folding to the flop 3-bet.

Re: This Hand Got Ugly Quick - Thoughts
 

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I was hoping to get two other people to come along (making the pot 7.5 bets not including the 2 that I'm calling) to play a four-handed, raised pot with 1.5 SB of dead money in it. It almost worked out like that but not quite. I agree about folding to the flop 3-bet.

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Here's the problem.

Unless I'm mistaken, three or four-handed is the worst possible case for a mid to small pocket pair. You lack the implied odds to flop a set (really, you do!), yet there's enough seeing the flop to reasonably assume that you're behind if you don't. You're hoping for this worst-case scenario.

You're 7:1 or so to hit your set. since you're paying 2SB to see the flop (we hope!) you need 14SB to make this a decent call--actually make that about 18-20SB to account for the 20% of the time or so we make our set and lose (and we'll lose a lot since we'll be going to war), as well as the rake. There could be anywhere from 3SB to 6SB by the flop depending on if they call. Can we make up 6-9BB by the river if we hit? My spidey sense says no--while it's possible the flop could hit us and others and spark a war, in my experience it's not as likely as us raising the flop and getting 4BB or so from the PFR.

If you really want to continue this hand for some reason, my advice is to three-bet preflop. You'll likely get rid of the blind and the poster, making you heads up and giving you a slight advantage if he has overcards. On top of that you'll find out how likely it is he actually has OCs--if he caps and leads an undercard flop you're probably sunk.

Not saying I'd advocate a 3-bet preflop here as we have little in the way of PFR reads on the guy--if he was smart enough to isolate the poster I'd say go for it but it looks like he's not.

Re: This Hand Got Ugly Quick - Thoughts
 

*grunch*

without a strong read I think I would probably fold preflop. You could also 3-bet it... If he caps then leads the flop I fold. If he calls then raises the flop I fold. Your line just seems like spraying a bit, but I suppose MP2 could be just going crazy on overcards or whatever. Meh.

BBB