Limped pot 100-200
 

Somewhat aggressive and very fishy guy limped in EMP. Tricky overly loose LAG Derbish type player calls in the SB. I check in the BB with J6o

Flop is JT8 rainbow

I usually go for the check-raise or check 3-bet in this spot. I have friends who usually would just bet the flop. How about you guys?

BTW I think the limper bets here atleast 90 percent of the time and probably pretty close to 100

Re: Limped pot 100-200
 

"BTW I think the limper bets here atleast 90 percent of the time and probably pretty close to 100"

than that's your answer. you lose value by not check-raising or reraising here. if limper will bet A3o here than you must go for the c/r. betting is a mistake, there's really no thread here.

Re: Limped pot 100-200
 

OK, just a check-up then I guess...I almost always go for the C/R, but some great players I know say they often will just lead here. I have always agreed with your point Mike that I lose way too much value in this small pot. My guess is a few others on this board lead here a lot too, so hopefully this helps someone. Anyone disagree with Mike?

Re: Limped pot 100-200
 

Maybe the better question is what percantage of the time does the limper need to check with no pair to make leading better

Re: Limped pot 100-200
 

It is player dependent obviously, but usually I will go for a checkraise.

Re: Limped pot 100-200
 

I'd check-raise here most of the time.

Re: Limped pot 100-200
 

Given the way you framed the problem I can't see why a good player would argue for leading out here.

Re: Limped pot 100-200
 

Yea they more said, "I often lead here but it would be pretty easy to convince me that check raising is better". Anyways I just threw it up on the board as a check-up. Im sure this spot is a small leak in some peoples games who are glad I did. Is it worth talking about what % of bets we need from the limper to just lead here, or is playing it by feel like im sure most of us do probably close to perfect anyways?

Re: Limped pot 100-200
 

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe the better question is what percantage of the time does the limper need to check with no pair to make leading better

[/ QUOTE ]

You'd also have to look at how often the limper raises or calls a bet with a worse hand, and also how often the LAG in the small blind will either: checkraise a bet and a call, checkraise a check and a bet, overcall the flop, or call after a check and a bet with a hand worse than yours.


I intuitively think checkraising is clearly better here, but the issue is more complicated than your above question makes it seem.

Re: Limped pot 100-200
 

I bet here a very high percentage of the time. if you play with these players often then you need to strike a balance. I also like to lead on flop like 8 4 3 when i'm in the bb and try and take it down. if you dont lead into rag flops ith nothing then check raising is fine. but if you lead a lot without hands they have to see that you lead with top pair so that your other leads have some weight.

Re: Limped pot 100-200
 

[ QUOTE ]
I bet here a very high percentage of the time. if you play with these players often then you need to strike a balance. I also like to lead on flop like 8 4 3 when i'm in the bb and try and take it down. if you dont lead into rag flops ith nothing then check raising is fine. but if you lead a lot without hands they have to see that you lead with top pair so that your other leads have some weight.

[/ QUOTE ]

Someone else brought up a good point that if you check, EP autobets, SB might checkraise hands that are worse than yours and drive you out. I like betting a high percentage of the time for NYplayer's reason and this reason.

Re: Limped pot 100-200
 

If it gets bet and raised I am 3-betting not folding, your argument doesnt work

Re: Limped pot 100-200
 

I like to strike a balance between betting and checkraising, and I'll do the same thing if my hand here was T6 instead of J6. I usually go into my shell pretty quickly though, if i get much action I don't like my hand very much because this board is often a good one for many player's limping hands.

Re: Limped pot 100-200
 

I knew u wouldnt be in the check-raise every time camp

Re: Limped pot 100-200
 

[ QUOTE ]
I knew u wouldnt be in the check-raise every time camp

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is that?
By the way, I feel like in the long run I do really badly in pots like this if I get any action. Much worse than I would expect.

Re: Limped pot 100-200
 

Well, one thing I like about check-raising in this spot is u can lay down top pair a lot easier on a later street because u showed much more strength than leading. That helps me in these spots I think...If I lead I have a tough time folding

Re: Limped pot 100-200
 

[ QUOTE ]
Well, one thing I like about check-raising in this spot is u can lay down top pair a lot easier on a later street because u showed much more strength than leading. That helps me in these spots I think...If I lead I have a tough time folding

[/ QUOTE ]

I've actually tried checkraising the flop, and then just checking the turn and then either calling down, or betting the river if he checks behind on the turn. This way I feel like I don't give up a ton if I'm winning, but I don't risk folding a winner and I induce some bluffs.

Re: Limped pot 100-200
 

[ QUOTE ]
Well, one thing I like about check-raising in this spot is u can lay down top pair a lot easier on a later street because u showed much more strength than leading. That helps me in these spots I think...If I lead I have a tough time folding

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with what you said, although I think it can be dangerous to call the flop three bet and fold the turn unimproved agaist some of the more aggro types like the player in question here. I dont think its unusual for him to raise the flop, bet the turn, and check river with a lot pair and straight draw type hands.

Re: Limped pot 100-200
 

Hi Hiatus,

I like betting out sometimes, and C/Ring others here. I think you guys have discussed why the C/R is good, but there is some merit to betting out. Basically, I like to do it because you often get raised by really aggressive opponents and get to play the pot headsup, though sometimes you are beaten you're good more than enough to see it out, for sure especially on a draw-heavy board with aggressive opponents. The other thing is that if you start betting out lots of flops in spots like this, they will eventually see this as a sign of strength in the future which allows you to steal more on flops from the blinds by only putting in a single small bet. This is fantastic when you have something like a gutshot or even total air, though on this exact flop, I wouldn't recommend betting with nothing since it's kind of a limper's board.

Re: Limped pot 100-200
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well, one thing I like about check-raising in this spot is u can lay down top pair a lot easier on a later street because u showed much more strength than leading. That helps me in these spots I think...If I lead I have a tough time folding

[/ QUOTE ]


I've actually tried checkraising the flop, and then just checking the turn and then either calling down, or betting the river if he checks behind on the turn. This way I feel like I don't give up a ton if I'm winning, but I don't risk folding a winner and I induce some bluffs.

[/ QUOTE ]

top pair seems like a bit too good a hand to be giving free cards with, but if you had t6 here i think thats a pretty good line.

Re: Limped pot 100-200
 

This is definetely a 'mix it up hand'. Sometimes you need to bet and sometimes check-raise.

Though based on:
The Limper will bet 90% to 100% of the time here.

I would BET more often than not. (If it was heads up the exact opposite would be true)

Why?
1) SB will also know that limper will bet with nothing so he may call (and then call your raise). "Sometimes you don't want to trap players."
2) Now on the turn there are so many scare cards the rest of the hand will be tough to play with 2 other players in the pot.
3) Plus if you check raise now and the turn is a low blank the pot will now be big enough for players to draw at you and you will need to dodge another bullet.
4) I like to bet. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I do not three bet here vs a limper raise (you really are not ahead of many hands even KQ is beating you). I call and if the turn is a blank I bet.

Re: Limped pot 100-200
 

[ QUOTE ]
I bet here a very high percentage of the time. if you play with these players often then you need to strike a balance. I also like to lead on flop like 8 4 3 when i'm in the bb and try and take it down. if you dont lead into rag flops ith nothing then check raising is fine. but if you lead a lot without hands they have to see that you lead with top pair so that your other leads have some weight.

[/ QUOTE ]

Me too.

Re: Limped pot 100-200
 

i lead this flop a good chunk of the time because i lead a lot of flops a good chunk of the time whether i have anything or not.

they key is striking a good balance. as paluka said in other posts though, i get a big headache if i get played back at too hard as a c/r seems to always get me trapped with a raise on the turn.