88 on the button
 

Potty 2/4

At work so no hand history. SB~25/12-ish over a small sample.

2 limpers to me i raise 8h8s on the button. SB calls, BB calls, limpers call.

5 to the flop:

8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]10 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

EP limper bets, i raise, SB 3bets, limpers fold, i cap. sb calls.

Turn: 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

sb bets, i call.

River: 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

sb bets, i raise intending to fold to a 3 bet.

Re: 88 on the button
 

I don't know if I'd fold to a 3-bet on the river.

I'd say it's at least a call.

Re: 88 on the button
 

what is sb 3betting that we beat by the river?

Re: 88 on the button
 

I think this river strategy ties in nicely with your loc.

Re: 88 on the button
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think this river strategy ties in nicely with your loc.

[/ QUOTE ]

tis the season.

Re: 88 on the button
 

why raise the river and not the turn?

if were ahead, raising the turn charges draws, but then again we have to call a 3-bet because we most likely have outs if were behind, id probly end up calling a 3-bet here too, but i dont really see what dude could be 3-betting that we beat on the river

i dont know, id raise the turn, but id like to hear your reasoning behind waiting till the river, maybe you think he folds a king on the turn?

Re: 88 on the button
 

sorry...but how do you fold with all the money in the pot? wouldn't many players with those stats play top two this way? even 8/10 or k/8 i could see...

Re: 88 on the button
 

where did you get this river play?? just call man. so he just calls with Q-hi flush and you lose 2 bets, or he 3 bets A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] or KT and you fold a winner.

Re: 88 on the button
 

To actually add some content, is this a raise for fold equity or for value?

If for value, what worse hands are calling? I see next to nothing that is played this way.

If for fold equity, what hands are folding that beat you? A small flush? Set of Kings? Maybe the latter, maybe, but then I also don't know how likely Kings are. If he just had a flush draw or draw and a pair I'd be shocked if he calls a river raise. So just call.

Er, also a set of tens, maybe somewhat more likely, but I'd be surprised if he folds those often enough, or that he has them often enough.

Re: 88 on the button
 

You would have to be 94% sure you were beaten to fold on the river.

I raise the turn.

Re: 88 on the button
 

I'd likely raise the turn, call if 3-bet, call a river bet U/I, raise if improved (obviously).

Given that hero called the turn, is there anything wrong with simply calling the river, rather than raising? If 3-bet, it looks to me hero almost has to fold (is sb seriously 3-betting anything we beat?), but I'd likely call (though I'm not sure I raise the river U/I so the situation wouldn't even come up if I take my call down line).

Re: 88 on the button
 

[ QUOTE ]
why raise the river and not the turn?

if were ahead, raising the turn charges draws, but then again we have to call a 3-bet because we most likely have outs if were behind, id probly end up calling a 3-bet here too, but i dont really see what dude could be 3-betting that we beat on the river

i dont know, id raise the turn, but id like to hear your reasoning behind waiting till the river, maybe you think he folds a king on the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

on the turn i would have to call a 3 bet. on the river i won't. i like the idea of raising the turn from the perspective that if i am behind i do have outs to improve and therefore i have some "suck out" equity. raising the river may be putting in more money than i have to with a dead hand, but i can fold to a 3 bet at that point. also river raises can scare better hands into only calling at times. also, i may actually have fold equity on the river if he put me on a single club initially seeing as how i slowed down after capping the flop, but then change his read because a river raise may smell like he has been slowrolled by a monster. so i chose to raise/fold because i think i am ahead often enough to get that extra bet in, i think my chances of folding a better hand may slightly exist, and primarily the scary board may deter a 3 bet from all but hands by which i am 100% beaten. i don't know if i liked it so thats why i posted it. i would like to hear some more thoughts.

Re: 88 on the button
 

[ QUOTE ]
where did you get this river play?? just call man. so he just calls with Q-hi flush and you lose 2 bets, or he 3 bets A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] or KT and you fold a winner.

[/ QUOTE ]

AA would 3 bet preflop. only a lunatic 3 bets K10 on this river.

Re: 88 on the button
 

After you cap the flop and villain bets out on the turn, it looks like he doesn't have a flush. If he had AQ [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] he probably would check-raise the turn. But KK/TT looks reasonable. If I'm going to put in a raise, it will be on the turn, calling a 3-bet and 1 river bet. I wouldnt want to fold this hand given the possibility of AA or AK with the A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. So 3-4 bets is about all I want to put in on the turn and river. Difficult situation, but I wouldn't want to have to fold this hand, and don't mind sacrificing value to do that.