Impossible hand.
 

How do you play this? Specifically, what do you do on the turn?

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">
TAG raises</font>, CO calls, LAG calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, TAG calls, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333"> LAG caps</font>, Hero calls, TAG calls, CO calls.

Flop: (17 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, TAG checks, CO checks, <font color="#CC3333">LAG bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, TAG folds, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">LAG 3-bets</font>, Hero calls, CO calls.

Turn: (13 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">LAG raises</font>, Hero folds, CO calls.

River: (17 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">LAG raises</font>, CO calls.

Final Pot: 21 BB

Re: Impossible hand.
 

LAG is trying to get real tricky here, and I am not sure what he has. I might just call the flop to try to hit my set, and give up otherwise, but your line seems like it has merits too. On the turn you are getting about 8:1, but your Q outs may not be good. You probably have around 5 outs, which is barely enough, but it easily could get capped behind you. I think the fold is fine.

Re: Impossible hand.
 

uhh folding to the turn 2 bets cold isn't criminal, if you have no reads on the CO you have to guess you're losing to a K or A. It'll be 4BB minimum to get to the river with CO and LAG raising it up.

Are you telling up the CO and LAG were betting Q hi or 8s or underpairs? CO is stop and going his ass on TT? I doubt it.

Re: Impossible hand.
 

I can't see anything but a fold.

Re: Impossible hand.
 

I typically call the flop too, but the LAG gave me a chance to scare the TAG a bit.

He told me after the hand that he folded an A.

Re: Impossible hand.
 

I don't like the flop c/r. I don't think you're getting any hand to fold that you want to fold.

The turn I like, because you're going to lose the pot UI almost always, will sometimes lose even if you set up, and will sometimes split even if you hit the straight.

EDIT: just read the responses, I really don't think you should expect an A to fold too often here, a K may get out of the way, but anyone calling all those bets piecemeal on the flop will be inclined to call two on the flop. Maybe a turn c/r is better for trying to fold out a K? I dunno, I still would rather call the flop and c/f the turn UI.

Re: Impossible hand.
 

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I don't like the flop c/r. I don't think you're getting any hand to fold that you want to fold.


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This isn't true. He got an A to fold, and will often get an A or K to fold. LAG is playing really weird, so we may have the best hand. I can see why he did it, but I am not sure if I do it. I probably just take the easy route and call, and fold the turn UI. Raising the flop definetly has merits though.

Re: Impossible hand.
 

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I typically call the flop too, but the LAG gave me a chance to scare the TAG a bit.

He told me after the hand that he folded an A.

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does everyone agree that his flop check sucks??

Re: Impossible hand.
 

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This isn't true. He got an A to fold, and will often get an A or K to fold.

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It wasn't true this time. K maybe, probably more often than not, but I really, really don't expect even TAGs at 3/6 to lay down something like AT, A9 here.

Re: Impossible hand.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This isn't true. He got an A to fold, and will often get an A or K to fold.

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It wasn't true this time. K maybe, probably more often than not, but I really, really don't expect even TAGs at 3/6 to lay down something like AT, A9 here.

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A lot will. He got 3-bet, and capped preflop. Although LAG is looking like a retard, he still must be scared. He is now paying 2 bets, on what will surely be an expensive showdown. I think a lot of people fold their AT or A9, expecting they are dominated or drawing virtually dead.

Re: Impossible hand.
 

I liked how you used LAGs position compared to you and faced the field with 2 cold on the flop. I also like your turn fold.
nh

Re: Impossible hand.
 

Like I said, I didn't intend to CR the flop, but when the opportunity presented itself, I thought I'd take it.

I think if I bet out, they're all calling and then the LAG is raising. So, the pot gets even more bloated and everyone's still in.

Re: Impossible hand.
 

why the hell are you c/r ing this flop???

fold turn. I don't know, unless he was a maniac, I think I'm giving up on this flop somewhere. Like bet/fold, or maybe c/c. I don't know i'm being lazy and don't want my head to hurt thinking about it...

Re: Impossible hand.
 

I would probably lead bet the flop, but turn it into a bet/fold because with those two big overcards, you have 2 outs to another Q, while there are 6 outs to an Ace or King. Given the aggressiveness of the other players, sometimes you just have to fold an unfortunate strong hand on a killer flop and live for another hand.

Yes, a Jack came on the turn giving you 4 more outs, but you wouldn't have been thinking that before hand.

Your action preflop was good, but bet the flop and fold on a raise.

Re: Impossible hand.
 

Ok, I'm going to post the results for this.

TAG folded an A, or at least told me he did, and I believe him. Went like this:

Him: Did you have an A on that huge hand?
Me: No, but I folded the winner.
Him: I folded an A on the flop.

CO had JTo, meaning that I only had 4 outs on the turn. A Q would have given him the nuts. Oh wait, I was AHEAD ON THE TURN.

I can't remember for sure, but I think the LAG had 7 high.

I will now gargle lighter fluid.

Re: Impossible hand.
 

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I would probably lead bet the flop, but turn it into a bet/fold because with those two big overcards, you have 2 outs to another Q, while there are 6 outs to an Ace or King.

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Bet/folding the flop is horrible. If you bet, you have to call when it gets raised.

Re: Impossible hand.
 

Bet the flop, call 1 SB but not 2SB. Isn't that simpler and cheaper?

Re: Impossible hand.
 

My initial reaction to the flop checkraise was that it's bad because you are way ahead or way behind. When your ladies are good (not often) you are very difficult to catch and otherwise you are drawing short to a monster. Either way protecting your hand isn't very important. Might as well minimize the -EV raises and play for overcalls in case you win.

My second reaction was to reconsider my fixed belief that we cannot force out a better hand and go on the win heads up versus bozo. Perhaps we can because this is a very scary situation.

My third reaction is that the second reaction has a flaw. Possibly we achieved the miracle and promoted our second best hand to a winner. So we won a giant pot--not! Our own hand proved to be too weak to stand the heat and we didn't make it to showdown despite turning a gutshot.

The flop checkraise to promote your hand would have made more sense if you were committed to seeing a showdown.

Call the flop. See how many opponents will drop out without being given an extra push. Hope for a good turn. Decide if it's worth continuing when the turn action gets to you.

Re: Impossible hand.
 

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Call the flop.

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Check/call or bet/call?

Re: Impossible hand.
 

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Bet/folding the flop is horrible. If you bet, you have to call when it gets raised.

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Why do you have to call when it gets raised? Does your fold button stop working after you bet?

Re: Impossible hand.
 

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Does your fold button stop working after you bet?

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Getting 22:1 immediate odds and likely 24:1 when all is said and done, yes, my fold button stops working when I'm holding QQ in this situation.

Re: Impossible hand.
 

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Bet the flop, call 1 SB but not 2SB. Isn't that simpler and cheaper?

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I usually don't like to state things so strongly, but I think leading the flop is by far the worst of the three options and is in a close race with open-folding. If you get raised and its only one back to you, you have to call becuase of set outs. If you're going to put two bets into the pot, at least do it in a way that will increase your chances of winning (like the c/r).

I think its a tough call between c/r the flop and check-call if its one back to us. The TAG got trapped in this and could easily have stuff like KQ, AT, A9s, A7s?, KJ, and possibly some other things that he might be able to get away from after you c/r the LAG. He didn't have to call two cold preflop, so there are more marginal hands he could've raised with in MP had to call your 3-bet, then have to call the LAGs retarted cold-call/cap.

I think OP may be behind LAG, but there is a decent chance he's ahead. IMO, this cc/cap play means that the LAG probably has some retarded suited hand, maybe it has an ace, maybe not.

I think many people believe that the c/r only has merit if we can get TAG to fold a better hand, if TAG has something like JJ, TT, 99, etc, we might as well let him play along. Well, I think the chances that TAG could fold a better hand + the fact that forcing others out of the pot makes this thing easier for us to play since we can call down UI. If we check-call and UTG or CO comes along, it makes it difficult for us to call when LAG comes out firing, and we still could have the best hand.

Re: Impossible hand.
 

Just checked: 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Re: Impossible hand.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I usually don't like to state things so strongly, but I think leading the flop is by far the worst of the three options and is in a close race with open-folding. If you get raised and its only one back to you, you have to call becuase of set outs. If you're going to put two bets into the pot, at least do it in a way that will increase your chances of winning (like the c/r).

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What hands would you bet this flop with? Think about that for a minute.

If I'm the TAG I'm certainly thinking about it. I'm thinking about your 3-bet out-of-position with three players already in for two bets. I'm thinking about how you are making no effort to protect your hand. I'm thinking that you are deliberately provoking a raise and you'll probably get it from one of the two live players behind me.

Mostly I'm thinking about how much money it's going to cost me to show down A9 or KQ.

Acting like you want people to fold is not always the best way to get a fold. Against a good player the bet is at least as effective as a checkraise because it threatens a wringer and it disguises your motives. It also never misses and doesn't expose you to a very unwelcome 3-bet.

Betting is at least as good as checkraising in my opinion. It's certainly not the awful thing you make it out to be.