Did I just collude?? I feel dirty...
 

I played this hand with "Dave" who is a very long-time friend and poker buddy; he's pretty solid, and we both know each other's styles inside out.

$20 / $40 live game - somewhat loose all-around.
UTG limps, Dave limps with Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], MP2 (who is tight as a friggin rock) raises, I call on button w/ 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and four of us go to flop.

FLOP: 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

UTG checks, Dave bets, MP2 (preflop raiser) raises, I call, UTG folds, Dave calls.

Turn: 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Dave now donkbets the turn, MP2 raises again, I'm not thrilled, but I call with my partially tainted OESD.

Now here's where things get interesting.
River is a 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] completing a backdoor flush draw. Dave quickly checks, MP2 looks noticeably digusted (as i mentioned before, he was an absolute rock and wore his cards on his sleeve) and checks to me. I'm sitting there with a pair of 9s that I'm sure are no good, and Davie is sitting on a pair of Ts having missed his flush draw that he is pretty sure are no good.

I catch his eye for what couldn't have been more than a split second, but we know each other's game so well that I felt almost positive that we were thinking the exact same thing: i.e. the only way one of us was going to take down this sizeable pot was for us to bully out MP2 who we both felt nearly certain held an overpair based on his tightness (set of jacks was also a possibility, but remote). So like clockwork, I bet my 9s and without hesitating Dave check-raises. MP2 rolls his eyes, mutters to himself and folds an obvious overpair. I call down, just because pot is so big, and I thought that it would look uber-suspicious if I had just folded, we show our 9s and Ts respectively, and MP2 loses his mind.

Frankly, I have no qualms about what we did, and when we talked about it afterward, Dave confirmed that he was thinking exactly what I had been thinking: i.e. that it was pretty clear that I couldn't beat an overpair because I hadn't raised the turn (he told me he figured me for a pair of 9s or A9s), and knowing that he also couldn't beat MP2, he hoped that I would bet the river, so he could bully check-raise to win the pot for one of us. No advance plan was made...nor did we have anything explicitly orgainized like signs that would be construed as cheating...it was just a matter of 2 players knowing each other extremely well, and in a way working "together" (for ONE of our benefits, although we didn't know whose) without communicating.

The more I thought about it, though, the more OK I felt, because (even had Dave and I not known each other) Dave's river check-raise wouldn't have been an altogether terrible play, if he thought that I was trying to make a desperation river bet with a missed draw or lower pair, if he thought he could beat me, but not MP2. But the fact that we were to some extent inside each other's heads made it feel a tad sketchy.

Re: Did I just collude?? I feel dirty...
 

You didn't say anything or run any kind of placement move. You just happened to know each others' games and the third player's game well enough to both know the play would work.

As long as you didn't then ask him to chop the pot with you, then you're OK in my book.

Re: Did I just collude?? I feel dirty...
 

wouldn't you do the same thing if you hated Dave's guts, but still knew his play inside and out?

Re: Did I just collude?? I feel dirty...
 

[ QUOTE ]
it was just a matter of 2 players knowing each other extremely well, and in a way working "together"

No advance plan was made

nor did we have anything explicitly orgainized

[/ QUOTE ]

Regular players do this sort of thing all the time. Very annoying
to newcomers, but not explicit collusion.

NH

-ZEN

Re: Did I just collude?? I feel dirty...
 

Wow...of course, you could spin it this way: You were bluffing on the end and Dave thought you were bluffing, so he CR'ed you to force the MP out. Excellent play to make the better hand fold. Dave was just maximizing his chance of winning the pot.

NH

ScottieK

Re: Did I just collude?? I feel dirty...
 

This is cheating, but not by much. The only reason it is cheating is your statement about "the only way one of us is going to take it down." If you had simply suspected that you had a better hand than your buddy but not the rock, and further suspected that your buddy may raise a hand weaker than yours, thats fine. What you did is pretty despicable IMO.

Re: Did I just collude?? I feel dirty...
 

Yeah...only raise when you have the best hand...to
not do so is cheating...

My advice is play golf or another "gentleman's game"
if this is truly how you feel; not a predatory game for
money.

-ZEN

Re: Did I just collude?? I feel dirty...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Wow...of course, you could spin it this way: You were bluffing on the end and Dave thought you were bluffing, so he CR'ed you to force the MP out. Excellent play to make the better hand fold. Dave was just maximizing his chance of winning the pot.

NH

ScottieK

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly, that's why I mentioned that in the last paragraph...even if we didn't know each other at all, it might have simply been an excellent play on his part if he thought I was bluffing with a missed draw or low pair, and he thought he could force out MP2.

Re: Did I just collude?? I feel dirty...
 

Raising to bluff a player is not cheating...even if you know you don't have the worst hand, but can push a player off theirs.

Re: Did I just collude?? I feel dirty...
 

while your play wasn't cheating, it simply sucked. You put in 2 bets on a river where you should have put 0. Maybe thats why you feel dirty.

Re: Did I just collude?? I feel dirty...
 

[ QUOTE ]
while your play wasn't cheating, it simply sucked. You put in 2 bets on a river where you should have put 0. Maybe thats why you feel dirty.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here's the thing. OP couldn't have known his buddy's hole cards. If he did, then he was cheating. All this commentary about "the only way one of us was going to win" is in hindsight knowing the way the hand played out. To add to my first post, its not the cleanest thing in the world, but far from collusion.

The play was suboptimal all around. Not cheating though.

Re: Did I just collude?? I feel dirty...
 

[ QUOTE ]
while your play wasn't cheating, it simply sucked. You put in 2 bets on a river where you should have put 0. Maybe thats why you feel dirty.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh, not quite sure you "get it".

Hypothetical 1: OP checks it through, random dude takes down $530 pot.

Hypothetical 2: OP invests $80 to help his friend take down $690 pot; Friend likely buys beers for him afterward (maybe even pays him back the $80 he put in on river...I know I'd do that for a buddy...although then the situation does approach cheating).

Re: Did I just collude?? I feel dirty...
 

The play is cheating because there is no way it could have benefited him were there not an implied arrangement to split the money at a later time. He intentionally made a bad play in order to have an opportunity (implied) to split money that he had no chance of winning fairly. That is collusion, and it is cheating.

Re: Did I just collude?? I feel dirty...
 

[ QUOTE ]
The play is cheating because there is no way it could have benefited him were there not an implied arrangement to split the money at a later time. He intentionally made a bad play in order to have an opportunity (implied) to split money that he had no chance of winning fairly. That is collusion, and it is cheating.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you can point out where the arrangement was to split the money, I'd be interested. As far as I can tell, there was no such arrangement. Just one guy who liked to help his friend take down a big pot. (as i wrote above, if i were "Dave", I'd probably pay my buddy back the $80 he put in on river...which I admit, only further sullies the situation)

Re: Did I just collude?? I feel dirty...
 

Even tho it was not pre-planned, this IS collusion. You bet knowing that you would not win the pot, but is rather providing the opportunity for another player to win it. THAT is collusion.
Fair poker is each player acting solely in his own self-interest. Dave did the correct thing, raising to drive out the winning hand so he can win. But you had bet that river knowing it would only provide Dave the opportunity to do this, without real expectation that your bet alone would win the pot for YOU.
That third guy was right to go bonkers. You cheated him.

Re: Did I just collude?? I feel dirty...
 

[ QUOTE ]
The play is cheating because there is no way it could have benefited him were there not an implied arrangement to split the money at a later time. He intentionally made a bad play in order to have an opportunity (implied) to split money that he had no chance of winning fairly. That is collusion, and it is cheating.

[/ QUOTE ]

You clearly lack understanding of what happened...so...

OP couldn't be certain that his play wouldn't win HIMSELF the pot. He DIDN'T KNOW that his buddy would do what he did. He fas fairly certain, but he wasn't sure.

Had no chance of winning fairly? WTF are you talking about bro? Bad play? Not with an uber-tight player who makes it clear he's disgusted with the river. Bet at it and try to get him to fold a better hand. Not to mention, where the hell do you get the "implied arrangement to split the money"? You need to either brush up on your reading comprehension, or at the very least your poker game.

Re: Did I just collude?? I feel dirty...
 

Even if the money was never returned, hero's river bet has no purpose other than helping his friend win by squeezing the other guy out. Since the bet has no value, and hero knows this, he is cheating.

Re: Did I just collude?? I feel dirty...
 

[ QUOTE ]
I call down, just because pot is so big, and I thought that it would look uber-suspicious if I had just folded

[/ QUOTE ]

More suspicious than calling with a pair of 9s? If you wanted to avoid suspicion, why'd you show your hand?

-McGee

Re: Did I just collude?? I feel dirty...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Even if the money was never returned, hero's river bet has no purpose other than helping his friend win by squeezing the other guy out. Since the bet has no value, and hero knows this, he is cheating.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hero didn't know his buddy's hole cards. If he bets and both others fold, was this play still cheating? The bet has value because it may win hero the pot. If he knew either A) his buddy's hole cards, or B) that there was a repayment coming later on, then I'd give you cheating. But not here. Stop being such a nit, there was no collusion here.

Re: Did I just collude?? I feel dirty...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I call down, just because pot is so big, and I thought that it would look uber-suspicious if I had just folded

[/ QUOTE ]

More suspicious than calling with a pair of 9s? If you wanted to avoid suspicion, why'd you show your hand?

-McGee

[/ QUOTE ]

The showing of the hand is the sketchy part to me. It just wasn't necessary.

Re: Did I just collude?? I feel dirty...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Frankly, I have no qualms about what we did,

[/ QUOTE ]

dont see this as anything other than collusion.

OP says he intentionally made it 2 bets on someone so the person would fold even though OP knew he had a losing hand.

doesnt matter that he didnt split the money or talk about it outright.

bwana

Re: Did I just collude?? I feel dirty...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Here's the thing. OP couldn't have known his buddy's hole cards.


[/ QUOTE ]

here's what OP said to that though:

"we were...[ QUOTE ]
working "together" (for ONE of our benefits, although we didn't know whose)"

[/ QUOTE ]

so he didnt know the hole cards but he figured one of them would win the pot w/ the river play. clearly collusion. anyone arguing differently should buy some ethics.

bwana

If it feels dirty, it is dirty.
 

If it feels dirty, it is dirty.

Re: Did I just collude?? I feel dirty...
 

nevada,

"the only way one of us was going to take down this sizeable pot was for us"

"working "together" (for ONE of our benefits, although we didn't know whose) without communicating"

This is out-and-out cheating. You and your friend were each playing a certain way so one of the two of you could win the pot, not so you individually could win the pot. You played poker as a team sport.

Re: Did I just collude?? I feel dirty...
 

perhaps one of the mods can change your title from 'journeyman' to 'cheat'.

Re: Did I just collude?? I feel dirty...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Here's the thing. OP couldn't have known his buddy's hole cards.


[/ QUOTE ]

here's what OP said to that though:

"we were...[ QUOTE ]
working "together" (for ONE of our benefits, although we didn't know whose)"

[/ QUOTE ]

so he didnt know the hole cards but he figured one of them would win the pot w/ the river play. clearly collusion. anyone arguing differently should buy some ethics.

bwana

[/ QUOTE ]

So when you bet the flop into a preflop raiser, hoping he'll raise to drive out the draws and weak hands, that's collusion? You are "working together" to maximize the chance that ONE of you will win the pot. Sklansky talks about this in his books, stating that it may be correct to bet/raise even if you know you're beat in order to drive out draws (and potentially better hands) and maximize your chances of winning. This sounds like a sandwich play, nothing more.

Again, NH

ScottieK

Re: Did I just collude?? I feel dirty...
 

that's true. however the times you lose those hands you dont consider them as your "benefit." that's what OP referred to it as.

[ QUOTE ]
for ONE of our benefits

[/ QUOTE ]

EDIT: this guy was all too happy to lose his hand. he bet so his buddy could win and he said that in his post. this is not a move from sklansky.

bwana

Re: Did I just collude?? I feel dirty...
 

Yeah, I'm just not getting the animosity toward OP here either...the fact is that if these 2 players didn't know each other, everyone would be raving about the nice play that "Dave" made to win himself the pot. OK, so now let's add to the pot the factor that these players know each other, and on of them THINKS he knows what's going thru the other guy's head (but of course can't be sure, unless they've worked something out beforehand, although there's no indication that this was the case).

So while OP might indeed have had the mens rea of a colluder, the actions themselves are on the level...not quite sure how you can accuse him of being a cheat...

Re: Did I just collude?? I feel dirty...
 

Interesting situation.

What was your purpose of betting the river? You know someone is at least going to call you if not raise. Both would be with a better hand as given how the hand played out, it's obvious you aren't going to win this hand. What would Dave be betting the turn with that you can now beat on the river? Would you have made this bet with the same thinking with a busted baby flush draw? You have a hopeless hand here on the end given the prior action. If this was the reason:

[ QUOTE ]
the only way one of us was going to take down this sizeable pot was for us to bully out MP2 who we both felt nearly certain held an overpair based on his tightness

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a fine line based on your thought process alone.

[ QUOTE ]
he hoped that I would bet the river, so he could bully check-raise to win the pot for one of us. No advance plan was made...

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, there sort of was. Basically, if you guys get into this type of situation that you presented, that's what you'd do. Which is basically playing for the benefit of both of you. I mean, c'mon, you'd do it over again even if you know your hand will lose, wouldn't you? You've pretty much said so even in this hand. (see your thought process above)

But it is an interesting situation.

Nice squeeze play.

b

Re: Did I just collude?? I feel dirty...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Here's the thing. OP couldn't have known his buddy's hole cards. If he did, then he was cheating.

[/ QUOTE ]

Basic handreading could tell him that his buddy has some sort of made hand. He just bet into a tight preflop raiser twice during the hand.

b

Re: Did I just collude?? I feel dirty...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I'm just not getting the animosity toward OP here either...the fact is that if these 2 players didn't know each other, everyone would be raving about the nice play that "Dave" made to win himself the pot. OK, so now let's add to the pot the factor that these players know each other, and on of them THINKS he knows what's going thru the other guy's head (but of course can't be sure, unless they've worked something out beforehand, although there's no indication that this was the case).

So while OP might indeed have had the mens rea of a colluder, the actions themselves are on the level...not quite sure how you can accuse him of being a cheat...

[/ QUOTE ]

The question would then be, would the OP have made that bet on the river, hopeless that it was, if it wasn't his buddy he's betting into. I doubt it.

b

Re: Did I just collude?? I feel dirty...
 

[ QUOTE ]
So while OP might indeed have had the mens rea of a colluder, the actions themselves are on the level...not quite sure how you can accuse him of being a cheat...

[/ QUOTE ]

would OP make the same bet if MP2 were next to act? hellno.

what if he did? that would squeeze his buddy out. OP would still lose the pot and neither of them would win. buddy folds, OP loses the hand and MP2 takes it down.

OP acted differently in this case because it was his friend who was in the hand and the order in which the players came. THAT IS CHEATING.

i dont think it's that hard to see.

bwana

Re: Did I just collude?? I feel dirty...
 

I have questionable morals as others have seen in a home poker thread, but my two cents anyway:
A scare card (for the rock) comes on the river, two players check, you bet. Maybe you knew your friend would checkraise the rock out, maybe you just thought he would. We often raise to try and knock out a better hand. Had this been discussed previously, definitely collusion. As it stands, its a little shady depending whether or not you knew you were beat. If you knew Dave had you, and you were losing the pot no matter what you did, you should feel bad. In my mind, the collusion becomes true later on, when Dave buys you a drink/meal whatever for helping win that pot. That is when you profit from the move.

Re: Did I just collude?? I feel dirty...
 

[ QUOTE ]
nevada,

"the only way one of us was going to take down this sizeable pot was for us"

"working "together" (for ONE of our benefits, although we didn't know whose) without communicating"

This is out-and-out cheating. You and your friend were each playing a certain way so one of the two of you could win the pot, not so you individually could win the pot. You played poker as a team sport.

[/ QUOTE ]

Change the friend to a guy that OP has played a ton of hands with and knows will probably raise to take down this pot. And the rock to the table [censored]. Just out of curiosity, would this still be cheating? As I said in another post, for me the cheating comes in if he profits off this dirty move.

Re: Did I just collude?? I feel dirty...
 

[ QUOTE ]
So when you bet the flop into a preflop raiser, hoping he'll raise to drive out the draws and weak hands, that's collusion? You are "working together" to maximize the chance that ONE of you will win the pot. Sklansky talks about this in his books, stating that it may be correct to bet/raise even if you know you're beat in order to drive out draws (and potentially better hands) and maximize your chances of winning.

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't the same thing. The difference is that this is so that even though you might be behind, you can draw out on the guy on a later street. Possibly also cleaning up outs and such.

This isn't betting into 2 better hands, hoping for a raise, knowing your hand isn't good on the river.

What would be real interesting is if you replace his bud with a major LAG that he knows might try for a bluff raise on the river with nothing. However, in that case, the intent is a little different. The unknown LAG wouldn't be raising hoping that the OP would win. He'd be trying to beat both players.

b

Re: Did I just collude?? I feel dirty...
 

[ QUOTE ]
That is when you profit from the move.


[/ QUOTE ]

You can also profit from this move if you do it for each other on other occasions, not just in a single isolated hand. You could also see it as this was just Dave's turn to take down the pot, to which he could reciprocate at a later time.

2 people knowingly helping each other win pots by squeezing out another player(s). One player doing it with a hopeless hand.

b

Re: Did I just collude?? I feel dirty...
 

I think this is not kosher because of the way you worded the post -- which may very well be your actual thought process.

If EP was just a player you knew well and you increased your own EV by betting with the knowledge that EP would likely check-raise, there is absolutely nothing wrong with the play. Given that this was a big pot (approx 13BB), I think a bet on the end that you believe will win you the pot >8% of the time is a good bet. Calling the raise because you had a guilty conscience is very very bad (unless you believed that EP would checkraise with a hand that you could be beat).

Re: Did I just collude?? I feel dirty...
 

he would not have done this if it wasn't his friend - it's collusion for all the reasons that bwana and bernie have already said on this thread

Re: Did I just collude?? I feel dirty...
 

[ QUOTE ]
he would not have done this if it wasn't his friend - it's collusion for all the reasons that bwana and bernie have already said on this thread

[/ QUOTE ]

The fact is that a bet is not always a bad move here if you know that (1) that both players will fold or (2) that EP will raise with a hand you can beat AND rock will fold enough of the time for you to increase your EV.

Many of the reasons given for this being collusion are wrong. It should be considered collusion for only one reason: OP was thinking about the collective increase in EV of him and his buddy together and not of his own EV. That is wrong.

Re: Did I just collude?? I feel dirty...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Many of the reasons given for this being collusion are wrong. It should be considered collusion for only one reason: OP was thinking about the collective increase in EV of him and his buddy together and not of his own EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is at the core of many of the reasons given that this could easily be collusion.

b