Tired of Getting Pushed Around
 

2 hands HU against the same exact opponent.

Am I doing something wrong?

He's VPIP 18.94%, Preflop raise 10.16%, Tot Agg 2.0 after 132 hands.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, BB calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.25 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero ?.

Final Pot: 5.25 BB


Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, BB calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.25 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero ?.

Final Pot: 5.25 BB

Re: Tired of Getting Pushed Around
 

Next time you try to steal his blinds, flop better cards. If you really think he's FOS, 3-bet one of these flops. That said, it's quite possible he hit any part of these flops and just figures you for unpaired big cards.

Re: Tired of Getting Pushed Around
 

Were these hands in rapid succession? Have you seen this guy c/r anyone else like this (sb defense, etc.)? Any Fold BB to Steal%? C/r%? What have you seen him show down?

Unless you know for a fact that this guy is taking shots at you based on your answers to the above questions, you have to give some credit to the theory, "Maybe he just got a hand against me twice." I think I fold both of these. If I'm not folding one, it's definitely the first one, which I'd call down, unless I hit my gutshot.

Re: Tired of Getting Pushed Around
 

I didn't detect any unusual patterns in his play, but these hands came about one round apart.

The reason I am upset about this is that it seems very standard that I get popped on the flop when I'm heads up in a steal situation these days. I'm having a tough time coping with it because I'm pretty sure some of them have to be "BS". Unless I hit the flop a little, it's tough to try to combat it even though I might be ahead a portion of the time and keep donating.

Re: Tired of Getting Pushed Around
 

Hand 1: I call the turn, and probably fold the river UI.

Hand 2: You've got 4 possible outs with the gutshot, and even if you count the king as 3 full outs, you still need 5.5:1 to see the river, right?

I fold.


I'm probably too passive, though.

Re: Tired of Getting Pushed Around
 

I dont think that you are doing anything wrong with your preflop raises and both hands have followed a similar pattern.

I would be interested to know whether you have showndown any of your HU hand with this opponent.

HU play is very different to ring play, and I think that you need to showdown a hand, even with only A and a good kicker sometimes. Otherwise as you suspect, you can get pushed off the pot by an aggressive opponent (and it looks as though your opponent is a TAG).

I would even have considered 3-betting the flop with your AT to try to regain control of the first hand. You have to remember that while you will miss 1/3rd. of the flops, that your opponent will also miss 1/3rd. of the time too.

With a rainbow and all rags on the 1st flop, I think there was probably a fair chance that your opponent missed the flop also.

Once you start to show down a hand or 2 HU with the same opponent, I think that you will then start to get a better feel of how they play and be able to make better decisions on future HU hands with them.

Re: Tired of Getting Pushed Around
 

Whatever you do don't decide to push back when he flops two pair, turns a boat, and rivers quads. That really sucked.

Re: Tired of Getting Pushed Around
 

Wait till you're in this situation a 3rd time and then instead of betting the flop, check-raise and bet the turn if he calls. If he thinks your "i have UI overs" line is raise PF, bet flop, fold to raise, then he'll think you're "i really have something this time" line is check-raise flop, bet turn.

I use this line in this situation a lot of times, even if I whiff on the flop and it works pretty well.

Then i follow that up with catching a good hand on the flop and using the "i have UI overs" line, which lets me reraise the flop and bet the hand out. He then calls down the hand thinking I'm just trying to buy the pot.

Edited to say: this is obviously opponent specific. I've recently refused to play more than 2 tables in order to focus more on opponent tendencies and really improve my game.

EVERYONE SHOULD DO THIS. At least once a week. You'd be amazed at how much you can take advantage of at a table by really watching how people play.

IMO, you just can't physically pay attention to everything you need to when playing 4 tables or more. I can't even do it playing 3. For me personally, the amount my winrate increases by playing 2 tables and focusing far outweighs getting in 300 hands/hour 4 tabling. I learn nothing 4 tabling. I've improved more the past 2 weeks of 2 tabling than I have in 6 months of 4 tabling.

Re: Tired of Getting Pushed Around
 

If you were at a higher limit and playing SH, then I'd say you should look out, because his stats indicate TAG. However, this is a pretty advanced/aggressive blind defense play for most micro players. Here I think it's probably best to just let it go. He probably has a hand.

Re: Tired of Getting Pushed Around
 

A decent player will make a play at these flops vs your pfr thinking you have ui overs. This is really read dependent, I would call down hand 1 and take a note on his play. Lots of these villians will raise draws or even bluff at low flops. How often have you 2 tangled, if he sees you folding he may take more shots.

I'd call down hand 1, I'd fold hand 2. If you have show down value, like in hand 1, call down and get some notes on this guy, it's the only way you will be able to play him later on.

Re: Tired of Getting Pushed Around
 

assuming it's the same guy: i wouldn't have bluffed the 2nd hand especially given i only have 1 OC and the BDFD, i'd like to see the turn cheaply. he's obviously aggressive on blind defense.

and i'd consider pushing back on the flop: 3-bet, which i'd consider on the 1st one because it is possible we still have the best hand and i'd like a free turn card and possible call the river.

Re: Tired of Getting Pushed Around
 

The other thing to do is to wait to pop him when you DO flop a hand. Wait until the river and let him take the lead expecting that you'll fold. Then BAM!. It only takes a couple of times before he'll slow down on his steal attempts.

Everybody else seems happy to fold to your open raises as well. Start raising (occasionally) with some lower suited connectors and make him realise that he's making a mistake messing with a 2+2er on ANY flop. Watch him crumble like the biatch he is.

Re: Tired of Getting Pushed Around
 

You are at least calling in both of these hands. So I guess the question is if you should raise either of these. Meh I wouldn't raise, but that is not to say that I would never raise with nothing here. You have to pop an UI something roughly 20% of the time in this spot. Most of them would be as a semibluff (more then 8 surefire outs) or with a hand that can get out of dodge when 3-bet. Making raises with hands that have 4 locks and 0-6 maybe wins are about the worst types of hands to raise the turn with.

Re: Tired of Getting Pushed Around
 

[ QUOTE ]
You are at least calling in both of these hands.

[/ QUOTE ]
I would have folded the second hand for sure. I may call turn in hand 1, but likely not. Please explain.

[ QUOTE ]
You have to pop an UI something roughly 20% of the time in this spot.

[/ QUOTE ]
Where do you get this from?

Thanks Brad.

-Brad

Re: Tired of Getting Pushed Around
 

I think that calling down hand 1 might have made the following hand easier to play.

Re: Tired of Getting Pushed Around
 

hand1: this is close because we have a gutshot and the overcards, but the pot is small, so we should probably fold. What is a TAG BB defending with that we are ahead of or can draw given the pot size, and beat? Not much I think.

hand2: probably folding this pre-flop. wow post-flop, this looks about the same as hand1, but a bit thinner as we only have one overcard.

all-in-all, we should probably pick some better hands to play against this guy

Re: Tired of Getting Pushed Around
 

Each of these hands look to be worth &gt; 7 outs. We are getting 5.25:1 + implied odds so that should be enough to see a river card. Add in a few bluffing outs and the times that he gives up on the end, and it looks like a straight forward call to me.

Ok so now show me where I went wrong.... [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Tired of Getting Pushed Around
 

[ QUOTE ]
Each of these hands look to be worth &gt; 7 outs. We are getting 5.25:1 + implied odds so that should be enough to see a river card. Add in a few bluffing outs and the times that he gives up on the end, and it looks like a straight forward call to me.

Ok so now show me where I went wrong.... [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

ok, well, I was thinking around 6 outs each. I don't think implied odds are good for a pair, but for a straight you are detting 2 bets on the river each time, so a turn call is okay. What river cards are you bluff-raising in hand 1? In hand 2 you could maybe bluff raise an A, but that's about it.

Just to clarify, when you said that we need to pop him with air about 20% of the time, did you mean 3bet the turn or raise the river? Also, how did you arrive at 20%? I would never have considered how often we need to raise with air, and am curious why we would.

Re: Tired of Getting Pushed Around
 

I don't think I raise K9s with this guy on the button, personally.

Re: Tired of Getting Pushed Around
 

[ QUOTE ]
Wait till you're in this situation a 3rd time and then instead of betting the flop, check-raise and bet the turn if he calls. If he thinks your "i have UI overs" line is raise PF, bet flop, fold to raise, then he'll think you're "i really have something this time" line is check-raise flop, bet turn.

I use this line in this situation a lot of times, even if I whiff on the flop and it works pretty well.

Then i follow that up with catching a good hand on the flop and using the "i have UI overs" line, which lets me reraise the flop and bet the hand out. He then calls down the hand thinking I'm just trying to buy the pot.

Edited to say: this is obviously opponent specific. I've recently refused to play more than 2 tables in order to focus more on opponent tendencies and really improve my game.

EVERYONE SHOULD DO THIS. At least once a week. You'd be amazed at how much you can take advantage of at a table by really watching how people play.

IMO, you just can't physically pay attention to everything you need to when playing 4 tables or more. I can't even do it playing 3. For me personally, the amount my winrate increases by playing 2 tables and focusing far outweighs getting in 300 hands/hour 4 tabling. I learn nothing 4 tabling. I've improved more the past 2 weeks of 2 tabling than I have in 6 months of 4 tabling.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm starting to think a check raise line is pretty darn good if you know a player likes to to raise in these HU steal situations.

If the flop is raggy and all I'm doing is making a follow through flop bet anyway, then why not either take a free card or check raise if he bets and put him to the test instead of being in that position myself.

I also agree on 2 tabling vs 4. For bonus clearing you can make the case that 4 tabling is better, but for learning I think 2 is optimal.

Re: Tired of Getting Pushed Around
 

[ QUOTE ]
The reason I am upset about this is that it seems very standard that I get popped on the flop when I'm heads up in a steal situation these days.

[/ QUOTE ]
You didn't get the memo? There was a conference among all the big poker sites and they e-mailed all the donks, telling them to do this.

In a multi-way pot, they'll just call down, hoping to catch something, but try to steal their blinds and they go all Gus on you.

Re: Tired of Getting Pushed Around
 

Well assume that we would always raise an overpair on the turn. After the raise he would be getting ~8:2 to calldown, so it makes sense that we have nothing 20% of the time and an overpair (or TPTK/set/2pair) 80% of the time. This way it makes no difference if he decides to calldown or not since the odds we are bluffing are the same as the effective odds he is getting.

Then on the river, he would be getting ~9:1 to call a raise. So what we do in hand one is something like this...

We raise any ace, ten, straight and the K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] on the river. Raising a ten may or may not be correct, but let's just assume that it is. If we raise those 11 cards, it is 10:1 that we aren't bluffing and he is getting 9:1 to call. Not a fun place for him to be in.

Re: Tired of Getting Pushed Around
 

How is the first hand a steal situation?

I would have 3-bet the flop on the first hand. On the second I think I would fold. Any pair, ace, or KT+ beats you.

Re: Tired of Getting Pushed Around
 

:grunch:

Hand 1: Good fold.

Hand 2: I wouldn't have raised preflop or even played that hand. I would check it through on the flop.

Re: Tired of Getting Pushed Around
 

There's nothing wrong. Sometimes you should 3-bet or call and raise the turn. However, you must remember that villain can have just a weak hand, but it's still ahead of yours. I'm convinced that in all of these hands, the villains had two overcards and were playing the same chasing game that you want to play. (Edit: What I had here a moment ago wasn't correct. The second two cases were chasing 6 outs and getting 6:1. It barely works out to barely profitable if you include one more bet on the river. However, they could just as easily be drawing to 3 outs, making it highly UNprofitable.)

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) internettexasholdem.com

Preflop: Hero is BB with 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP1 calls.

Turn: (4.25 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 folds.

Final Pot: 5.25 BB

===

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) internettexasholdem.com

Preflop: Hero is BB with 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, CO calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, CO checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, CO folds, Button calls.

Turn: (5.25 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button calls.

River: (7.25 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button folds.

Final Pot: 8.25 BB

===

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) internettexasholdem.com

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">6 folds</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (5.50 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP1 calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 calls.

River: (6.75 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 folds.

Final Pot: 7.75 BB

===

And here's an example of why you should be careful when you *DO* have overcards (especially an ace or king):

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) internettexasholdem.com

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP3 calls.

Turn: (4.25 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, MP3 calls.

River: (10.25 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, MP3 calls.

Final Pot: 16.25 BB

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
Hero has Kd 6d (two pair, kings and sixes).
MP3 has Ah Kc (two pair, kings and fours).
Outcome: Hero wins 16.25 BB. </font>

Re: Tired of Getting Pushed Around
 

[ QUOTE ]
Well assume that we would always raise an overpair on the turn. After the raise he would be getting ~8:2 to calldown, so it makes sense that we have nothing 20% of the time and an overpair (or TPTK/set/2pair) 80% of the time. This way it makes no difference if he decides to calldown or not since the odds we are bluffing are the same as the effective odds he is getting.

[/ QUOTE ]

so basically we want to make it breakeven odds for him to call down from the turn so that he isn't gaining anything when he calls down. Does this get better if there's a chance he folds?

Also, on a hand like this, if I decided to play back, I would often 3bet the turn and then check behind on the river UI. Now, at first glance this seems like a good move, because we put in only 2more BB when behind, and 3 when ahead (assuming we win when we hit the river). However, us checking behind on the river changes the odds he had to call down (now 9:1 or something, instead of 9:2). I am thinking that this does not matter, but want to verify that checking behind UI is correct.

[ QUOTE ]

Then on the river, he would be getting ~9:1 to call a raise. So what we do in hand one is something like this...

We raise any ace, ten, straight and the K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] on the river. Raising a ten may or may not be correct, but let's just assume that it is. If we raise those 11 cards, it is 10:1 that we aren't bluffing and he is getting 9:1 to call. Not a fun place for him to be in.

[/ QUOTE ]

ok, so you lost me a little bit here. I understand the reasoning on each street...we are raising certain hands that would bet him and give him barely breakeven odds to call. We gain a lot when he folds a better hand to a bluff, turning this play from neutral EV to +EV for us.
However, I am still unclear on whether you think we should raise the turn or the river in hand 1. From what I understand, it seems not to make much difference, as either way we have him in a tight spot. Thanks for the help.

Re: Tired of Getting Pushed Around
 

[ QUOTE ]
Well assume that we would always raise an overpair on the turn. After the raise he would be getting ~8:2 to calldown, so it makes sense that we have nothing 20% of the time and an overpair (or TPTK/set/2pair) 80% of the time. This way it makes no difference if he decides to calldown or not since the odds we are bluffing are the same as the effective odds he is getting.

Then on the river, he would be getting ~9:1 to call a raise. So what we do in hand one is something like this...

We raise any ace, ten, straight and the K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] on the river. Raising a ten may or may not be correct, but let's just assume that it is. If we raise those 11 cards, it is 10:1 that we aren't bluffing and he is getting 9:1 to call. Not a fun place for him to be in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice pratical explanation of how to use Game Theory. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

For those who are new to this concept, the idea is that you try to match your bluffing frequency with the odds that your HU opponent is receiving to call your bet.

This should then place your opponent in a situation, where he will not be able to take advantage of your bluffing too often by always calling, or your never bluffing by always folding.

By bluffing with the correct (mathematical) frequency, you should automatically maximise your expectation.

Re: Tired of Getting Pushed Around
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Each of these hands look to be worth &gt; 7 outs. We are getting 5.25:1 + implied odds so that should be enough to see a river card. Add in a few bluffing outs and the times that he gives up on the end, and it looks like a straight forward call to me.

Ok so now show me where I went wrong.... [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

ok, well, I was thinking around 6 outs each. I don't think implied odds are good for a pair, but for a straight you are detting 2 bets on the river each time, so a turn call is okay. What river cards are you bluff-raising in hand 1? In hand 2 you could maybe bluff raise an A, but that's about it.

Just to clarify, when you said that we need to pop him with air about 20% of the time, did you mean 3bet the turn or raise the river? Also, how did you arrive at 20%? I would never have considered how often we need to raise with air, and am curious why we would.

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm guessing it's a game theory kindof thing.

i'm sortof coming into this blind... but raising with air has to be a part of a balanced strategy for maximizing profit -- since otherwise (in theory) villain will always fold to our raises if we always have the goods, whereas we'd like him to call incorrectly. (and conversly, if they think we always have the goods, they'll fold when we have air)

edit - fantam beat me to it and explained it better.

Re: Tired of Getting Pushed Around
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Each of these hands look to be worth &gt; 7 outs. We are getting 5.25:1 + implied odds so that should be enough to see a river card. Add in a few bluffing outs and the times that he gives up on the end, and it looks like a straight forward call to me.

Ok so now show me where I went wrong.... [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

ok, well, I was thinking around 6 outs each. I don't think implied odds are good for a pair, but for a straight you are detting 2 bets on the river each time, so a turn call is okay. What river cards are you bluff-raising in hand 1? In hand 2 you could maybe bluff raise an A, but that's about it.

Just to clarify, when you said that we need to pop him with air about 20% of the time, did you mean 3bet the turn or raise the river? Also, how did you arrive at 20%? I would never have considered how often we need to raise with air, and am curious why we would.

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm guessing it's a game theory kindof thing.

i'm sortof coming into this blind... but raising with air has to be a part of a balanced strategy for maximizing profit -- since otherwise (in theory) villain will always fold to our raises if we always have the goods, whereas we'd like him to call incorrectly. (and conversly, if they think we always have the goods, they'll fold when we have air)

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, I am kinda starting to get it. Wow, I actually learned something at work today.

Re: Tired of Getting Pushed Around
 

Yeah I was unclear. Let me try and make it more understandable.

You raise preflop, get called by the BB and are check/raised on the flop. You just call and see a turn and he bets out. It is on you.

- 20% of your turn raises/river bets should be with nothing. 80% should be legit hands.

If you decide to not follow up on the river, you would only raise with nothing ~14% of the time. If you raise with more, people can exploit you by calling and then check/folding the river (since you would never bluff on the end).

- If you just call the turn, you would raise the river everytime you hit something. To balance it, 10% of your river raises would be with nothing. So for a 10 out draw, you would assign one card in the deck to be a "bluffing out". While this technique isn't perfect for LHE, it probably causes more headaches for the other guy as long as you pick a reasonable card. Don't pick something like an offsuit deuce because there is no way that it helped your hand and there is no way that you would have slowplayed something like AA this long.

Re: Tired of Getting Pushed Around
 

At .5/1 Party tables I think it is very read dependent on the person you are heads up with. There are several people who simply won't fold if they have a peice of a flop heads up. Not when there are over cards on the board, not when they've been c/r'd and re-raised and bet into on every street. Yes, you want to play those people. A lot. But you also need to show down a hand with them.

Re: Tired of Getting Pushed Around
 

[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Re: Tired of Getting Pushed Around
 

TOP explains this game theory bluffing frequency the best I've ever seen it explained.

My game isn't advanced enough to really use this properly yet. I probably won't be ready to really dig into it until I hit like 10/20 or something. If that ever happens...

But the concepts are very interesting.

Re: Tired of Getting Pushed Around
 

These are great examples and add to an already very nice thread. Thanks, Aaron!

Re: Tired of Getting Pushed Around
 

[ QUOTE ]
At .5/1 Party tables I think it is very read dependent on the person you are heads up with. There are several people who simply won't fold if they have a peice of a flop heads up. Not when there are over cards on the board, not when they've been c/r'd and re-raised and bet into on every street. Yes, you want to play those people. A lot. But you also need to show down a hand with them.

[/ QUOTE ]

In my mind, these are automatic check-raise situations unless I have a read to suggest that a different play is better. Flop texture is a very important consideration. The odds are against them having a pair, and therefore in favor of me having the best hand. I don't care if they're calling down because most of the time they're calling down with ace-high and I win money. It's not about driving them out of the pot (though I don't mind if they go), but extracting value when I figure to have the best hand most of the time. I'm perfectly willing to show down my hand against them.

Re: Tired of Getting Pushed Around
 

I dont see what the big deal is. Both your hands are relaitvely weak and the pot is not very big.

I discovered that one of my biggest leaks was giving too much action in small pots with marginal hands such as these. I would get caught up in the thought that the other guy was "making a move" on me because he put me on unimproved overs. Then I would end up giving too much action with marginal hands. Typically, the guy would have some sort of a hand, (middle/bottom pair or a small pocket pair) and I would throw away too much money with these weak hands.

In a situation such as this where rag flops, you dont make a pair and youre draws are very weak its best most of the time just to surrender the pot. That might sound like a weak tight strategy to some, but giviing too much action in small pots with weak hands like this is something I consider a major leak. Youre opponent will have a legitmate hand probably about 1/3 of the time and hell be semi bluffing with a stronger draw then yours about 1/3 of the time which means hell either have a hand that is favored to win or draw out on you 2/3 of the time.....not a good situation for Hero.

Give up the pot...its small. Youll have the best of it in the long run....youve got position on Villian and hes probably calling with hands that are much weaker then yours. Dont let youre ego provoke you into giving too much action in small pots with hands that probably wont show a profit.

And BTW, if you are going to play weak hands like that after the turn you should raise the turn as soon as you pick up the gutshot if you believe your opponent is bluffing or "taking shots at you". This strategy is better then checking and calling on the turn and river because a) you may induce your opponent to fodl on the turn if he is bluffing b) you can check the river after he checks to you assuming he calls your turn raise c) you can bet the river if you improve or even if you dont and might be able to induce him to fold. Either way, raising the turn is correct if youre going to give any action at all.

-Mike