Interesting 20-40 hand to disect (big pot)
 

I thought this was an interesting hand from last nights session that we could get some discussion off of. Seat 5 is a fish. Seats 3 and 4 however are very good players that I've played with for along time. They should know I'm soild as well and that I dont get out of line. Ok, so I'm going to cheat a bit here and give you the results. I'm doing this because I'm interested in a street by street analysis of what you would do with each players hand on each street. I ended up losing this hand. I'm posting it not as a bad beat story but because I would have played slightly diffrently if I held my opponents hand (s), seat 3 and 4. I'll give my thoughts later.

So the results are that the 3 seat held 4h 8h underneath for a made straight in 5. Seat 4 held aces-up first four with aces and eights. Like I said, seat 5 is a fish. If you're wondering about my call on third it was due to a.) the fact that clubs were so live here and the 4 seat will complete with three-flushes b.) the 5 seat called, who is on tilt, and likely has nada. My other thoughts in a bit.

Also, as a sidenote, I'm going to get back into playing some stud just to break up my full-time hold'em routine. I figure that it will be easier on the mind mixing it in there for a few hours a week. That and the fact that we really really need a few good stud posts on this forum. I know I've been lazy about posting them, but these, usually mundane, stud/8 posts that have been flooding this forum are killing my eyes. Where are all the stud-high posters that used to post some provoking hands? I'll try to make an effort to post more myself as well. I see a few are posting some interesting hands, but not many.

7 Card Stud High ($20/$40), Ante $2, Bring-In $5 (converter)

3rd Street - (0.80 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 2: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___brings-in___folds
Seat 3: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls___calls
Seat 4: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___completes
Seat 5: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 6: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 7: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls

4th Street - (5.05 SB)

Seat 3: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls___calls
Seat 4: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets___raises
Seat 5: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls___calls
Hero: J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___raises___calls

5th Street - (8.53 BB)

Seat 3: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___raises___calls
Seat 4: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets___calls___calls
Seat 5: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls___calls___calls
Hero: J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___raises___raises

6th Street - (24.53 BB)

Seat 3: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 4: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___checks___calls
Seat 5: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___checks___calls
Hero: J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___checks___calls

River - (28.53 BB)

Seat 3: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] xx___bets
Seat 4: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] xx___checks___calls
Seat 5: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] xx___checks___folds
Hero: J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___checks___calls

Total pot: (31.53 BB)

Re: Interesting 20-40 hand to disect (big pot)
 

I don't like calling third here. Since you did, though, I think you played the hand well, except that I would have capped it on 4th. I don't think you mind chasing out, if possible, the 4-flush (as it turns out, he wouldn't have gone anywhere). A lot of times on 5th I think Seat 3 is going to be jamming it with a straight draw + flush draw or a flush draw and pair rather than a made straight, but if he does have a straight draw or a made straight then he might have one of your 8's. What sucks here is that the 8's are in fact totally dead--I'm not sure if there would have been any way to guess this given the action. As it stands, you have less than 20% equity on 5th instead of more than 30% (or more than 44% if he doesn't have the straight).

In the moment, I probably play it almost the same as you did--I don't think I could give credit for the straight on 5th. Slowing down after that is smart. The pot is gigantic, so folding for one more bet on the end would be crazy.

Re: Interesting 20-40 hand to disect (big pot)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think you mind chasing out, if possible, the 4-flush

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, that seems pretty likely. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: Interesting 20-40 hand to disect (big pot)
 

[ QUOTE ]

Yeah, that seems pretty likely. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Eh, fair enough. I was more responding to the only reason I could think of why Mike didn't cap 4th. But if I were in this spot, I'd consider folding a low flush draw without straight potential for 2-cold if I put the Ac on a 4-flush as well, and then I'd probably call. Of course, there's no chance I'd fold 4h-6h-8h-7h for any amount of money 4-way, and I'd be the one doing the capping, most likely. But unless Mike were worrying about driving out the 6h 7h, I don't see why he didn't cap 4th. My point is that I wouldn't mind driving out the flush draw anyways, so there's no reason not to cap 4th.

Re: Interesting 20-40 hand to disect (big pot)
 

Very interesting hand, here is what I would do with each players hand, starting with yours.

Hero:

3rd: I would fold 3rd street here. I understand that your opponent might be raising with a 3 flush, but that is a legitimate hand. The 20-40 ante structure on partypoker requires extremely tight and unimaginative play.

4th: I might cap 4th street, but calling and trying to get a raise in on 5th is also a good idea.

5th: I definitely play the hand just like you did. Even if your opponent has a straight you'll win more than your fair share. Right now you have 5 outs to fill on 6th but you'll have around 7 or 8 on 6th street. If you combine this I think you win around 25% of the time if not more. Therefore capping even if he shows you a straight isn't a bad move. Since you can't be sure he has a straight, you definitely should cap.

6th: I'd bet just in case im ahead. The fact that the straight called 5th would make me think I'm ahead so I would bet.

7th: I call the pot is too big.
-------------------------------------------
Seat 3: (3 flush)

3rd: I call
4th: I'd be raising here with my 4 flush and gut shot in a 4 way pot.
5th: I'd definitely cap here since hero can't have me beat and the other guys look like they aren't ahead either.
6th: I'd bet
7th: I'd bet
---------------------------------
Seat 4: (Aces up)

3rd: I would raise
4th: I'd play it the same
5th: I think at this point I would fold aces up. Its pretty clear that hero has trips here, and not to mention now seat 3 is raising with what could be a straight. If my full house cards were live i would consider calling but with only 2 outs to the full house I definitely fold.

6th: If I made it this far I'd call here

7th: Call.

Re: Interesting 20-40 hand to disect (big pot)
 

good post frappe

Re: Interesting 20-40 hand to disect (big pot)
 

Hero:
3rd: I think this is sure worth calling. Expect to lay down easily later but there is value in hidden Js and sparseness of As. I would put Seat 3 on a likely flush draw but maybe just with one suited hole card and say KQ. I'd consider that Seat 4 has As or 3 flush.
4th: Bingo! I raise. I probably re-re-raise too. I know that I will bet/call on later streets if either 3 or 4 make another suit. Shucks about 8c reducing my liveness.
5th: Yup, time to jam. Seat 3's raise represents tons of possibilities overlooked on 4th but, in most cases, you gotta re-re-raise. Probably, in the heat of action, I don't consider that if Seat 3 has a straight, what were his hole cards?
6th: Here, I think: What does Seat 4 have? Must be As/8s. But the check is good news. Now, what about Seat 3? Very scary board but the betting leaves me puzzled. I'm not convinced he has a hand. I think I bet. I don't know. I'm pretty cheap. Maybe I check.
7th: Yeo, Check-call.

Seat 3:
3rd: I will never fold this. The liveness of Hearts alone makes it sure I will play with all that money there.
4th: I found her and we're getting married. I'm happy Hero raises. I can call and let the pot build up. Seat 4 is a worry. Hmm, what does Hero have anyway? Js&8s? Trip Js? Seat 4 with a re-raise? And with 2 other Clubs out? Hmm, maybe I need to catch big. But wait a sec, I have 12 outs, 1 of which is Monster. I might raise.
5th: Well, I caught (admittedly on the low end) and I think I'm ahead so I raise.
6th: Hmmm. Glad of the heart and Seat 4's check, I bet.
7th: I bet.

Seat 4:
3rd: I might be tempted to slowplay here but liveness of hearts probably make the raise appropriate. Also, livenees of my own clubs could confuse villains. Complete.
4th: Great. Let's thin the crowd. My cards aren't very live but I have a strong hand. Seat 3 looks scary. Huh? Hero's raise is worrisome. Maybe he made 2 pairs and reads me on a draw. Or maybe trips. I re-raise to get a feel. Hero's call relaxes my fears of Trips.
5th: What the heck is hero doing? Must be trips. Ouch, now Seat 3. Hmmm. I call the raises and start hoping for miracle A or 8.
6th: Sigh, if I had slowplayed back on 3rd, could I pick up this pot? Nah. Check/Call.
7th: Ditto.

Re: Interesting 20-40 hand to disect (big pot)
 

First off, damn good post Frappe. Thats the kinda discussion I was hoping it would generate. Now my thoughts are as follows...

3rd: I should have just folded. Even if he is raising with clubs I dont have a big pot equity edge of any type. If he has aces I'm far behind. However, like I said, the 5 seat calls to the river with everything and it helps slightly. Still a fold, but I dont think its hideous.

4th: I simply called the 3-bet so I would likely be bet into, and therefore I could raise fifth. I figured if he (the ace) had clubs on 4th that he would just lead 5th street, even if he blanked, provided that I didnt cap and the 3 seat dosent catch another heart on fifth. If I cap its kinda announcing my hand and ruling out the possibility of just eights and jacks on fourth for me. At least I would assume these two players in question would realize this.

5th: Heres where I would have been able to muck aces-up if I was the 4 seat. It should be obvious to him that one, if not both of us, have trips when it comes back to him. He should have known better and made whats no doubt a tough, but correct fold. The 3 seat of course has the nuts at this point and I'm putting him on a lower set. I think I have the best hand. Thus our play seems straitforward.

6th: If the 3 or 4 seats were on flush draws they just got there. Hearts are a total rarity from all the cards exposed so far. But yet I know from past experience with the 3 seat that he wouldnt jam a 4-flush on fifth like that against this action. To tell you the truth the only reason I checked was because I thought the 4 seat made his club flush. As for my opponenets, aces-up man has to know hes likely behind here and in check-call mode. Meanwhile the 3 seat has a easy bet for now.

7th: Heres where I'm wondering what some people think about checking behind with the 3 seats hand? I think a bet is still better, but its close. He has to know by now that I/we have trips and the 4 seat also could have clubs.
Assume that we're both check-rasing if we catch, and he of course is paying it off. How much would you lose here by just checking you queen high flush behind and not risking 2-1 on getting check-raised? I know that I was check-raising if I boated up, and can almost guarantee if the 4 seat got there he was doing the same.

Mike Emery

Re: Interesting 20-40 hand to disect (big pot)
 

3rd:I really don't think the call is that bad with seat 4's tendancy to raise 3 flushes,the A of spades out,& weak seat 7 calling.
4th:I may wait until 5th to raise here.If seat 4 doesn't bet 5th,seat 5 may do it.So you don't have a really big chance of missing a raise,& it disguises your hand a little bit.Besides,it might be good to see 3 & 4's 5th st.cards first.Whether both,neither,or either of them show a 3 flush may change your strategy.Not capping 4th was good,for reasons you stated.
5th:Looks like your way worked out great,though.I really think raising 4th is best anyway.
6th:You probably need help.
River:Pot too big. Call & take your medicice.Tough luck.

I\'d all on 3rd
 

There is a great chance you have the best hand, your cards are live and hidden, the Ace is dead and you are probably going have position for the rest of the hand. Even if you have slightly negative EV on 3rd all the positive factors above give you a great advantage on later sts (plus you are probably a better player) which make the overall EV of the hand positive.

-Carlos

Re: Interesting 20-40 hand to disect (big pot)
 

Analysis your hand.

Okay -- Here is my opinion. If the 4 seat player is very good and someone I respect, then I fold jacks here more often than not. I do this particularly because the 20-40 stud online has a very tight structure. You can wait for a better spot.

Once you call 3rd however, fourth street play is perfect. You should raise as you want to charge the most for a flush draw. If the three seat is as solid as you say, that is the most likely hand other than a set.

I like your smooth call after the reraise by the ace on 4th and the reraise ramp on 5th, charging the flush draw the most on the expensive street. (It's just bad luck he hit a straight.)

Now if the 3rd seat is as good as you think and respect, then I actually think you can fold the river. He is not bluffing in a pot this big...he has a five card hand. If he has a set, he should be checking and calling based on the boards and the action.

______________________________________

Seat three played this as I would. I like his call on third, and he even has justification to raise 4th with a four flush and a gut shot straight flush draw. But he obviously respects you and/or doesn't want to knock out other players or he thinks the A8 of clubs might have raiseed with a flush draw, which is bigger than his. He definitely doesn't put you on a rolled up 8s. And he certainly shouldn't put you on a flush draw now making some kind of straight draw raise. I would be really curious to know what this player thinks of you. But I think he has to call to call here. I would even if I put you on three jacks. I know for a fact one of your fills card is about as dead as it can be.

On 5th, I raise again. I have no reason to believe anyone has a straight here. And now you have caught another not so live fill card. On 6th I bet...I bet the river for value. If I get raised...by either seat 3 or Hero...I would evaluate my opinion of them. And would strongly consider folding, unhappily.

_____________________

Seat 8.

He plays this okay...up until 5th. I would probably fold this hand on 5th, given all my fill cards are gone and the fact that I have to call two bets cold with aces up. I just have to be beat here. I am definitely up against a set at minimum.

If I get stubborn and call to fill...I fold the river...I can't be good.

Re: I\'d all on 3rd
 

This structure doesn't warrant this. Even if you are good. No reason to gamble in this game.

Re: I\'d all on 3rd
 

[ QUOTE ]
This structure doesn't warrant this. Even if you are good. No reason to gamble in this game.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's more to a hand then the size of the ante.

Re: I\'d all on 3rd
 

ante dictates action first.

Re: Interesting 20-40 hand to disect (big pot)
 

Don't have time to go into detail, but here's my take.

A strong case can be made for raising on third, but I see your logic. I like 4th and 5th, but I am betting 6th personally. You obviously are calling so I like betting just in case the DB doesn't have a straight or flush made. If he raises and clears the field that's ok too since you have nice redraw potential. 7th is an easy payoff even though you likely lose.

Jeff

Re: I\'d all on 3rd
 

[ QUOTE ]
ante dictates action first.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was drunk when I wrote that.

Re: I\'d all on 3rd
 

you are always drunk.

Re: I\'d all on 3rd
 

[ QUOTE ]
you are always drunk.

[/ QUOTE ]

How else can you find the balls to limp-reraise 3-flushes in a super tight ante game?

Re: I\'d all on 3rd
 

LMAO

Re: I\'d all on 3rd
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
you are always drunk.

[/ QUOTE ]

How else can you find the balls to limp-reraise 3-flushes in a super tight ante game?

[/ QUOTE ]

U should see me play STT's.. That's all I'll say.

Re: Interesting 20-40 hand to disect (big pot)
 

As the #3 seat, here's my thoughts (first post even though I do a lot of lurking)...

Player assesment...
#3: Hey, that's me!
#4: Solid player, but not a superstar.
#5: Dead money.
#8 (Hero): At the time, I didn't know it was Mike (different scrname than I'm used to seeing). From what I've seen, Mike is a solid player that borders into that realm of being a really really good player.

3rd: Hero's call isn't bad. Given his position, I think it's reasonable to assume that 4 people will call to 4th street, which obviously means that the pot at that point is paying 3:1. If he KNOWS that #4 has A's, he's getting even money. If #4 is raising with a three flush, Hero's odds are about 2.7:1. If #4 is raising with a pair smaller than J's with the A door card, Hero's odds are about 2.3:1. Also, I think you can add a little +EV because Mike plays well.

4th: I'm 95% sure that Hero has trip J's. I'm pretty certain it's not J's and 8's because I don't think Hero would've called on 3rd with split 8's with a J-kicker. I know trip 8's are impossible and believe pocket A's are extremely unlikely. The reason why I wasn't 100% convinced is because Hero did not cap the betting. Personally, at that particular time, I would've capped 4th, but when Mike explains why he didn't, I have to agree that his was the better play. Call me chicken, but I don't raise because of my certainty of Hero's hand. Mike's odds are about 1.8:1 and my odds are about 2.2:1, so while we're both getting +EV, he still has the much superior hand. Additionally, #4 still has a wide range of hands that he could have. Though, at this point, I give him naked A's or A's up. Incidentally, based on possible hands I gave #5, #4's odds are a whopping bad 6.1:1. I discount #5 because he's a Grade-A monkey.

5th: I hit my absolute best card, 5c. I know I have the best hand, so I'm trying to get as much money as possible in the pot. I'm glad I didn't hit a heart (unless it was the 5h), because as you saw on 6th, it would've likely have killed the action. Also, it's difficult to put me on the straight.

6th: Given the betting history and everyone's boards, this street pretty much played itself. The Qh allows me to totally discount #5's hand. The only question mark here is #4's hand until he doesn't CR. Given he doesn't CR, he doesn't yet have the winning hand. Going into the river, each player's odds are probably about:
#3, 0.5:1
#4, 14.1:1
#5, 12.5:1
#8, 4.2:1
And the pot is 28.53 BB, so everyone has correct pot odds to call.

7th: I'm definitely worried about either Hero or #4 improving to a hand that can beat me. As others have stated, I'm pretty sure it will be in the form of a check raise. Based on the odds I listed on 6th street, I believe I'm going to make 2-3 additional BBs 67% of the time and lose 2 BBs 33%, so it's an easy bet.

Hope this adds to the thread.

As an aside, I don't play nearly as much stud as I used to as I'm working on stud8 and hold'em. I might even get crazy and start playing Omaha8 again!

--Carl

Re: Interesting 20-40 hand to disect (big pot)
 

Very nice analysis and welcome to the forum [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Thanks...
 

Before I forget I just wanted to say that I believe we got some excellent responses to this thread. I want to thank everyone who took the time to post their thoughtful analysis (there were many). I read them all and got a lot out of this thread, as I'm sure others did as well.

Mike Emery

Re: Interesting 20-40 hand to disect (big pot)
 

[ QUOTE ]
(first post even though I do a lot of lurking)...

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow. Nice 1st post.

Re: I\'d all on 3rd
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
you are always drunk.

[/ QUOTE ]

How else can you find the balls to limp-reraise 3-flushes in a super tight ante game?

[/ QUOTE ]

U should see me play STT's.. That's all I'll say.

[/ QUOTE ]

Being crazy aggressive is how you take 1st in alot of SNGs. And taking first is how you make the money.