Value bet vs induce bluff
 

Seems like there has been a lot of discussion in the forum about value betting. The guys I've been trading hand histories with have been harping on me about hands like this. So what is your preferred line here? Do bet/fold (value bet) or ck/call (try to induce bluff) or bet/call (spew)?

Only 2 orbits with villian. Only hand that stood out was he raised 66 on the button with 2 limpers. Called down and sucked out when a 6 fell on the river (guess who was on the other end of that 2-outer)


Paradise Poker 1/2 Hold'em (4 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls.

Flop: (4 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls.

Turn: (3 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls.

River: (5 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero ????

Re: Value bet vs induce bluff
 

I like inducing a bluff here. There's nothing wrong with bet/fold, though, especially if he was on a busted flush draw and is considering calling down with jack high :-). Bet/call IS spew.

Re: Value bet vs induce bluff
 

this is like a bet/fold

Re: Value bet vs induce bluff
 

i bet-fold here.

Re: Value bet vs induce bluff
 

Ok, I should have been more blatant.

Why do you want to bet/fold this vs another line?

Re: Value bet vs induce bluff
 

Bet/call obviously sucks. You are crushed by anything that raises the river, so that line is out.

The problem with check/call is that when villain bets this river, he is not bluffing. There were no obvious draws on the flop for villain to be chasing, so the fact that he called the flop and turn suggests that he caught some piece of the board. By checking, you allow villain the option of checking down with a 5, but he's obviously betting a Q. So check/call costs the same as bet/fold when you're behind but will often miss a bet when you're ahead.

Thus, we bet/fold. This gets value off a villian that is calling down with bottom pair, 33, A-high or somesuch, and we can be super-confident in folding to a raise.

Re: Value bet vs induce bluff
 

This board is so dry there' s few hands he could bluff with. Bet/fold, or check/fold but don't check/call imo.

Re: Value bet vs induce bluff
 

[ QUOTE ]
This board is so dry there' s few hands he could bluff with. Bet/fold, or check/fold but don't check/call imo.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's a good reason why check/fold wasn't under consideration on this hand.

Let's say we (unwisely, IMO) check the river, and villain bets. We're surely good here 1 time in 7, no?

Re: Value bet vs induce bluff
 

I know, but it's still better than check call.

Re: Value bet vs induce bluff
 

[ QUOTE ]
I know, but it's still better than check call.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't agree with that at all. I wouldn't check-call this, but it's not a totally unreasonable line. Check-fold really is unreasonable.

Re: Value bet vs induce bluff
 

I was thinking about this last night...seems to me that if you've got a good ready on your opponent then check fold could well be the right way to go... all depends on what site/limit your playing. BUT, if you aren't comfortable with that, for whatever reason which is very reasonable, then IMO bet/folding is gnerally better than check/calling. Most fish will call a bet with hands they won't bet with.

Re: Value bet vs induce bluff
 

Pity if he has gone WA/WB (Maybe he thinks you're bluffing OCs etc) because if he spiked an eight whilst he protected his blind A8o or something you're still screwed.

Bet/fold it.

Re: Value bet vs induce bluff
 

If your hand is worth a call, and your opponent will call with more hands than he would bet, then you should bet.

Re: Value bet vs induce bluff
 

I think you need to b/f this. Chances are, when checked to he will be betting hands that have you beat and checking hands that you beat behind (ace high, for example). A bet will get a crying call from some aces and smaller pairs, and he's not likely to be raising anything that we have beat.

Re: Value bet vs induce bluff
 

I think that inducing a river bluff is much more difficult to do when a generic villain closes the action.

This is because he knows that he can just check behind and cut his losses, and will often do so if you've shown adequate interest throughout the hand. I know that I personally just about never bluff the river when I can just check through and move on.

When you're OOP on the river as in this hand, a value bet has two things going for it.
1)the river won't get checked through and your hand has some SD value
2)villain has the opportunity to incorrectly fold a hand that beats you, such as a paired eight.

Since this is a blind war though, you'll often bet here and he'll call with lots of ace high hands and lower pocket pairs. He'll call with hands that beat you as well, but he 'd be noteworthy if he raised with less than top pair.

In the future, if you want to induce a river bluff, wait until you are HU and in position. Then check through the turn with a hand that A)wont change much in value on the next card, and B)can call a bet on the river UI.

You'll be amazed at how often people fire with total snow when they think you've given up on the hand.

Re: Value bet vs induce bluff
 

As I was reading the responses, everyone seems to be thinking that betting the river is for value and checking is for bluffing. Then it occurred, why not bet for "information?" I agree with jrz1972 that if you check, he has the option to check down with a 5, 8, 4, and bet the Q or K(trying to bluff you out of the hand). However, if you bet to make him pay to play, then you can get information on him being that a raise gives him a strong hand, where as a check takes you to the showdown for free - so there is extra value in betting the river. Also, if you bet and he still calls you, then you get an extra bet if you win the hand. The fact that you bet all the way through and then would stop on the King would show weakness. If he raises on the River, after you bet, then at least it is an easier decision to make on what to do next.

Re: Value bet vs induce bluff
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think that inducing a river bluff is much more difficult to do when a generic villain closes the action.


[/ QUOTE ]

This I whole-heartedly agree with.

Personally, I would do this against a maniac because:
1) He would probably raise a bet on the river with any pair.
2) He will bet when checked to very very often.

With a hand like this I'm not comfortable sticking 2 BB in. Since villain is a maniac he will probably bet for me.

Re: Value bet vs induce bluff
 

Ok here is a hand (Hand #2) I reviewed for someone and a similar question comes up. This is only like the 7th or 8th hand of the session. So not much of a read. Here are my notes from the villians so far:

UTG - folded to river bet after leading flop &amp; turn
SB - donked the river after hitting his flush (turns out he was a true donkey)

Try to forget about the other streets. Should the hero bet/fold, ck/call, or ck/fold (viable option on this hand)
PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls, MP calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks, MP checks.

Turn: (2 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls, MP folds, SB calls.

River: (5 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero ?????

Re: Value bet vs induce bluff
 

with one left to act I check and re-evaluate. I'll call a bet, but I won't overcall. I don't think having this particular river get checked through is the travesty that the original hand was.