K4s in SB
 

Ultimate Bet 1/2 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Villain is 29/22/5(PFAF).

Preflop: Hero is SB with 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, Button calls, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

K4s isn't exactly a prime handed to be calling a raise with. However, given that there were 2 limpers prior to the raise, and a call after the raise, and I knew that the BB would call (extremely loose) along with the other limpers, I figured calling another $1.50 to take a stab at those 10.5 SB was good - is this thinking flawed?

Flop: (12 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, Button folds, Hero calls, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds.

Villain had been putting in a continuation bet pretty much every time he raised preflop whether he hit or not. However, he -might- have the queen. I figured at this point I could give myself credit for 5 outs - my 3 King outs plus a possible backdoor flush, so I called.

Turn: (7.50 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, Hero calls, UTG folds.

A club comes down, but I just check/called. Looking back on it now I maybe should have c/r - thoughts?

River: (9.50 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, CO checks.

I hit my King. Once again, looking back on this, I think I should have c/r the turn and lead the river, especially considering I hit my King.

Final Pot: 9.50 BB

Thoughts?

Re: K4s in SB
 

[ QUOTE ]
Once again, looking back on this, I think I should have c/r the turn and lead the river, especially considering I hit my King.


[/ QUOTE ]
How often do you think CO is going to fold on the turn? Do you have any hand range you think CO could be on? my default answer is I don't like a c/r on the turn.

bet the river for value

Re: K4s in SB
 

I think this flop is a fold. Your Kings aren't worth a full 3 outs and you're not closing the action.

The only reason I could see for raising the turn is getting UTG to fold a better King or a pair. That would be cool, but I doubt he has a better King very often and you're going to have to catch to win even if you do get him to fold a pair. You also have to consider the likelihood of being 3-bet, which seems like a good possibility against such an agressive opponent.

I also think the chances of you taking down the pot with a turn raise are very slim, especially against two opponents.

If you check and call the turn you can also win an extra bet on the river a lot of the time.

Re: K4s in SB
 

grunch

Preflop is close, but calling is okay. You have good relative position to lead the flop with your flush draw and hope CO raises and traps everyone for two. Or if you flop something more vulnerable, you have good position to check/raise.

Fold the flop. There's no way your K outs are worth 3. Maybe 1 for the Ks, plus 1.5 for the BDFD. Not enough to peel.

Turn is fine. Check/raising sucks here as it will almost certinaly get you HU with the preflop raiser with K-high. Bad news.

You can't lead this river. He's not calling with a worse hand (except maybe AQ), but he might bet a worse hand. Check/call lets him keep bluffing and gets you to showdown. If you bet, you have to fold to a raise, and that's no fun.

Re: K4s in SB
 

Fold that flop. Giving yourself a full 3 outs for your kings is ridiculous as you have no kicker.

Checkraising the turn is silly; you ain't getting value for it, and you ain't folding the PFR.

Hell I'm not even enthused with your preflop call. You're getting (12-1.5)/1.5 = 7:1 (6:1? I hate you odds notation), with no connectedness and easily dominated top pair strength. Meh, not my cup of tea, but I might be in the minority here.

Re: K4s in SB
 

grunch

A call preflop with this, when you know the pot is going to be as big as it ended up being, is probably ok. If you are going to call with this hand, you need to know what to do with it postflop.

It is an extremely easy fold on the flop. You have basically nothing. I'd hesitate to give you as much as 1 out for the king (nowhere near 3), and so all you have is a backdoor 2nd nut flush draw, plus a little, so maybe 2 outs: certainly not 5. The pot isn't big enough to call this, so fold it. You can't even close this round of betting with a call, and someone could be planning a c/r of his typical continuation bet.

Check call the turn. Check raise doesn't serve any purpose.

Bet the river for value (the king outs are cleaner here than on the flop).

Re: K4s in SB
 

Preflop is fine.
Fold the flop, given that you didn't, check/call the turn, and then just donk the river.

Re: K4s in SB
 

You should have folded on the flop. Remember he could have a better K than you, you aren't closing the action. Ugh, super bad flop call. PF is ok, turn is perfect, river is good.

Re: K4s in SB
 

fyi the first strategy post I make in a hand is almost always a grunch, like this one.

Re: K4s in SB
 

here is my 2cents... I am inclined to fold that pre-flop, particularly with someone that aggressive at the table. If you are calling the flop I like a raise. Try and force out another hands that might improve to beat you. I think this is a raise or fold. Anyone else make a push at this pot?

Re: K4s in SB
 

[ QUOTE ]

How often do you think CO is going to fold on the turn? Do you have any hand range you think CO could be on? my default answer is I don't like a c/r on the turn.
bet the river for value

[/ QUOTE ]

CO is probably going to fold the turn exactly never, which is a good point. C/R the turn wouldn't have accomplished much since he is at least calling, and maybe 3-betting which I don't want.

As far as a hand range is concerned... he is obviously fairly aggressive, but I had noticed that when there were limpers in front of him he tended to only be raising if he had a reasonably good hand, whereas if he was in MP or later with no limpers he would raise with more marginal hands. I think he's raising with 99-AA, AK-A9s, KQ-KTs, QJs with limpers in front of him.

After reading your responses and re-evaluating the hand, I agree that this is probably a flop fold. Given the hand range that my opponent might have my K outs were likely no good. Even giving 1 out for kings, plus the backdoor flush makes calling incorrect.

Re: K4s in SB
 

Isn't this a fold preflop accrding to Miller's SSHE?

Re: K4s in SB
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you are calling the flop I like a raise. Try and force out another hands that might improve to beat you.

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We are almost certainly behind right now; we don't need to worry about protecting K-high.

Re: K4s in SB
 

Playing K4suited out of the small blind against a raise and cold call down the line is a long term loss. Spare me any talk of playing styles or opponent tendencies. 25% of our investments are sound in this game. Trying to justify more and calling it a pot odd choice is most often better called a leak. Just my opinion.

Re: K4s in SB
 

[ QUOTE ]
Playing K4suited out of the small blind against a raise and cold call down the line is a long term loss. Spare me any talk of playing styles or opponent tendencies. 25% of our investments are sound in this game. Trying to justify more and calling it a pot odd choice is most often better called a leak. Just my opinion.

[/ QUOTE ]

Calling 1.5SB with K4s all the time is definitely a leak. But there are times when it can be okay. I listed some reasons up above for why. Folding is fine here as well, though, because it's close.

Of course, you probably shouldn't call preflop if you're going to call with 2.5 outs on the flop [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

Re: K4s in SB
 

*grunch*

I think that despite the attractive pot odds K4s is too weak and does too poorly multiway for a call preflop here. Seems like a pretty clear fold to me.

I am not too sure about taking one off on the flop either, I would suspect my K outs are not clean and regard my total outs as about 3.

With the hand played as it was to the turn, your action was fine on this street.

I agree with the river check, and I think a turn CR would have been silly here. I think, seeing the K from the after-hand perspective, it seems like a grand idea, but most of them time your hand would have missed here.

Re: K4s in SB
 

[ QUOTE ]
Calling 1.5SB with K4s all the time is definitely a leak. But there are times when it can be okay. I listed some reasons up above for why. Folding is fine here as well, though, because it's close.

Of course, you probably shouldn't call preflop if you're going to call with 2.5 outs on the flop [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly ... this isn't a hand I normally play, but given how much money was going in, I decided to give it a shot. I think a fold is good here as well, but I don't think calling is that atrocious.

On the flop however, agreed - there's no way my K outs are clean and I gave myself too many outs. This is a clear fold.

FWIW (which isn't much) - he had JJ and MHIG. At the time I thought I was brilliant, but obviously this is a losing play in the long run.

Thanks for the comments.

Re: K4s in SB
 

blind post
Pre-flop: I would fold, but I agree with the way you think. You're getting 6:1,5 in immediate odds, but probably 10:1,5. I would certainly call with a pocket pair, about the suited cards I'm curious to see what others say.
Flop: Time to fold, you cant give yourself 3 outs for that king with 5 other players in the pot. I give you at the max 3 outs in total. For me to continue here I would need at least 2 overs and the BDFD.
Turn is fine, I don't see the point check raising. Too few players to try to pump your FD, of course you increase our chances of folding UTG, but I think the risk of being 3-bet is not worth it since we don't have a hand yet.