Another stud/8 tournament hand: rolled up threes
 

Do I need to start jamming here earlier to protect my hand or put pressure on the low draws? I figured that as long as I was catching good and my opponents weren't I could wait until the big bets to raise.

Tournament - 7 Card Stud High-Low - Level IV (75/150), Ante 15, Bring-In 25 (converter)

Hero: 1,563
Seat 2: 3,964
Seat 3: 1,531
Seat 4: 901
Seat 5: 1,566
Seat 6: 1,246
Seat 7: 455
Seat 8: 2,747

3rd Street - (1.60 SB)

Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___brings-in___calls
Seat 2: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 3: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 4: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___raises
Seat 5: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 6: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 7: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 8: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls

4th Street - (5.60 SB)

Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 4: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 6: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls

5th Street - (4.80 BB)

Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___raises
Seat 4: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets___calls
Seat 6: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls___calls

6th Street - (12.80 BB)

Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 4: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 6: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___checks___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___checks___calls

River - (16.80 BB)

Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 4: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] xx___calls
Seat 6: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] xx___checks___folds
Seat 8: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] xx___checks___calls

Total pot: (19.80 BB)

Re: Another stud/8 tournament hand: rolled up threes
 

I like your call on 3rd as you do want a little action to try to win a big pot -- otherwise the queen might reraise and knock out the others. Some would argue for a 3rd st. raise, i'd like to here from them.

On 4th I'd have raised, not to protect my hand but for value, as you're now a strong favorite vs. two busted lows and a big pair .. you don't give away your hand by raising because it's natural to raise when you catch good and two others catch bad - punish them! make them pay to catch their lows, and if the q reraises and knocks them out, you can just call and wait 'till 5th: the advantage to raising 4th is if you brick, there's a good possiblility you'll also get to raise on the expensive street.

Re: Another stud/8 tournament hand: rolled up threes
 

Wouldn't it be best to isolate the high hand to increase your chances of a scoop? Why allow the players with low hands a chance to cheaply draw for half the pot?

I would reraise and expect the Q to 3-bet.

Re: Another stud/8 tournament hand: rolled up threes
 

Terrible.

Re: Another stud/8 tournament hand: rolled up threes
 

Before reading any replies, reraise third and do not take your foot off the gas unless really scary boards develop. Once you get raised by the queen, especially with two low card calling, you want to go full throtle IMO. No one will ever put you on a rolled up hand here, and if you are lucky the queen will reraise. If it goes reraise, fold, fold then I would back down and really hope to catch a high card on fourth to set up a raise on fifth. If you catch low on fourth in that scenario, you just gotta start back up on fourth. If you have two or more opponents, there is no way I don't bet and raise at every opportunity unless their boards get super scary and I don't improve. Given you did not do this, raise fourth.

Re: Another stud/8 tournament hand: rolled up threes
 

I would have played it slowly if nobody raised the bring-in. But since it got raised and coldcalled twice, I'm ready to start the war a little bit early.

Re: Another stud/8 tournament hand: rolled up threes
 

I believe you should have raised third and fourth. You started the hand with about 10 BB and don’t want to chance losing this hand.

Both Seat’s 6 and 8 called that completion cold, so they like something about their hands. If either of them catches well on fifth, they’ll probably stay to the end.

Unfortunately, you don’t have position to make them call two bets cold but I still think you need to make them pay as dearly as possible.

Re: Another stud/8 tournament hand: rolled up threes
 

I'm a big fan of playing small rolled up hands the same way I would play hands like 345. I would reraise this on third when it comes back and then I'm raising fourth and every other street if given the opportunity. It is too easy to catch scary in this game and not get the raise in.

Re: Another stud/8 tournament hand: rolled up threes
 

[ QUOTE ]
Wouldn't it be best to isolate the high hand to increase your chances of a scoop? Why allow the players with low hands a chance to cheaply draw for half the pot? I would reraise and expect the Q to 3-bet.

[/ QUOTE ]
Ok, I see the point of not letting these low draws in cheaply, but if 3-bet, I don't cap it, because that definitley might alert the queen

Re: Another stud/8 tournament hand: rolled up threes
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm a big fan of playing small rolled up hands the same way I would play hands like 345.

[/ QUOTE ]
I take it you are willing to cap it with 345 offsuit if the sixes and deuces are live? Would you cap it with the trips or just call the reraise - i guess if you play both these hands similarly it doesn't give away your hand as much - but the q may fear buried aces as well.

Re: Another stud/8 tournament hand: rolled up threes
 

Quote:"otherwise the Q might reraise & knock out the others." This is what you want(note the wisdom of DSaxton).You raise your EV much more by getting rid of the low than you do by trying to suck more bets out of them.This 3rd street call/raise decision is the crucial point of the hand imho.

Re: Another stud/8 tournament hand: rolled up threes
 

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:"otherwise the Q might reraise & knock out the others." This is what you want(note the wisdom of DSaxton).You raise your EV much more by getting rid of the low than you do by trying to suck more bets out of them.This 3rd street call/raise decision is the crucial point of the hand imho.

[/ QUOTE ] I'm not saying Ray Zee is god, but he is more experienced than me. He says it doesn't matter whether you play trips heads up or in multiway.. in heads up you'll scoop more often, in multiway you'll often win half of or occasionally scoop a huge pot - occassionally get scooped yourself. I guess in a tourney situation I would lean towards your point of view, but in cash games I try to win huge pots.

Re: Another stud/8 tournament hand: rolled up threes
 

Getfunky:It sounds like Ray Zee is talking about high stud instead of stud8.Am I confused about this? Thanks.

Re: Another stud/8 tournament hand: rolled up threes
 

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Terrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this a reflexive response you experience whenever someone doesn't jam a rolled up hand early? [img]/images/graemlins/ooo.gif[/img]

Re: Another stud/8 tournament hand: rolled up threes
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm a big fan of playing small rolled up hands the same way I would play hands like 345.

[/ QUOTE ]
I take it you are willing to cap it with 345 offsuit if the sixes and deuces are live? Would you cap it with the trips or just call the reraise - i guess if you play both these hands similarly it doesn't give away your hand as much - but the q may fear buried aces as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Generally I would cap unless I was quite certain it would kill my action.

Re: Another stud/8 tournament hand: rolled up threes
 

Your hand is well-disguised from the git-go. A big brick is raising. Reraise! No one can tell if you're rolled up or if you've got a premium low hand.

On fourth, you caught low when the other low-looking hands bricked off AND CALLED THE HIGH HAND'S BET. Jam! Do not pass go, do not collect $200. Clueless morons who call on fourth when they brick off must be punished to the full extent possible.

And since they're the sort of chowderheads who will call you down from fifth street when you've caught (to all appearances) spectacularly good, keep the heat on.

If that river deuce were an ace you would have scooped. As it was, you split the pot with seat 8's 87. Tell me I'm wrong!

Re: Another stud/8 tournament hand: rolled up threes
 

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If that river deuce were an ace you would have scooped. As it was, you split the pot with seat 8's 87. Tell me I'm wrong!

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No, I actually scooped. Seat 8 made aces up.

Re: Another stud/8 tournament hand: rolled up threes
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Terrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this a reflexive response you experience whenever someone doesn't jam a rolled up hand early? [img]/images/graemlins/ooo.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]
In loose stud hi/lo games, yes.

Re: Another stud/8 tournament hand: rolled up threes
 

[ QUOTE ]
Getfunky:It sounds like Ray Zee is talking about high stud instead of stud8.Am I confused about this? Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ] Here's the direct quote, i had paraphrased from memory:"It doesn't matter much whether you are heads up or in a multiway pot. When against only one opponent, you get to scoop more often. Against many opponents a low usually will be made and sometimes you will get scooped; however you generally will split and occassionaly will even scoop a big pot" It's in the starting hand section under Three of a Kind Wired.