10/20 KJs
 

Villain is 31.2/11.39/2.15.

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (10 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter

Preflop: I am MP2 with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">I raise</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, SB calls, BB calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, MP1 folds, I call, SB calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, I call, SB calls.

River: (8.50 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">I raise</font>

Re: 10/20 KJs
 

how many outs do you give yourself for the flop peel?

Re: 10/20 KJs
 

I have a backdoor straight draw, a backdoor flush draw, an overcard K and with his aggression number a J may be good; I could semibluff the A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] on the turn.

Re: 10/20 KJs
 

PREFLOP: Standard

FLOP: I think you should fold, since you really dont have a hand and you dont have the odds to draw to your one overcard draw/backdoor straight/flush draw. I know you dont respect the villain's flop bet, but since you have nothing I would fold.

TURN: Calling is better than raising since, there is no way the villain is folding a pair. So I agree with your turn play.

RIVER: Now the fun part. I see why you raised. Becuz you think there is a strong chance you have the BB beat, and now youre trying to freeze the SB out of the hand in case he has a Queen. This is obviously a risky/debatable play. I believe your play will fail the majority of time here, but that doesnt make it the wrong play since the reward is very high(ie you win the pot) So the question is will this play work enough to be worth it based on the pot odds you are getting. My honest opinion: I dont think so. The problem here is the BB has been betting the whole way, and now hes betting this river on a QJT8x board with two other opponents in the pot, I think there is a very good chance the BB has you beat and we both know he will never fold a hand your ahead of. The small blinds hand is impossible to define since the SB has been just calling the whole way, but there is still a significant chance the SB has you beat also and will not fold to your raise. The BB would have to be a complete retard to bet this river with a hand thats not better than yours and even though there are many people like this on party, I dont think this villain is THAT crazy.

Re: 10/20 KJs
 

river spew.

Re: 10/20 KJs
 

if you think SB will fold a queen, cool

i doubt BB is folding anything you beat, what do you think he bets the whole way that either didnt just hit 2 pair or a straight or had you beat in the first place?

Re: 10/20 KJs
 

I think I'd rather call the river and how that the SB covercalls with something that I beat. This feels awfully thin for value and like you're just not folding anything that beats you very often.

Re: 10/20 KJs
 

Who is villain? BB?

I don't like the raise on the river. On a board like this, a jack may give someone two pair or a straight. BB may be aggressive, but I doubt he is betting out on the turn without a "Q" again after all the action on the flop. I guess you can call on the river. I doubt BB is laying down his hand at this point, so you'd really have to have a clean read on him that he had air OR that he'd be wiling to lay down his mid pair. And that's if he doesn't have the Q. I'm laying this one down, most likely on the flop.

Re: 10/20 KJs
 

Scratch that, i'd call on the flop.

Re: 10/20 KJs
 

The river raise is no good at all (at least if the hand in question is to be considered in isolation). And if you had kept the pot smaller by just calling preflop, you would have had an easy fold on the flop after whiffing.

Re: 10/20 KJs
 

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And if you had kept the pot smaller by just calling preflop, you would have had an easy fold on the flop after whiffing.

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omg

Re: 10/20 KJs
 

If he was betting a draw up until now, it just came in.

EDIT: I like the line, just not this spot.

Re: 10/20 KJs
 

I think you raise the turn to clean up your outs. Plus you have a big draw here and it makes the river play much easier b/c you have force the BB to define his hand on the turn. Also, in this situation, you want to eliminate the SB player who is coming along.

As you played the turn, I don't know if I could make that raise on the end. It would be a much easier raise to make if the pot was heads up. I would be interested in hearing your reasoning on the river play. Were you raising b/c you thought you had best hand or did you think you had 2nd best hand and were trying to fold the SB who you felt had you beat?

Re: 10/20 KJs
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think you raise the turn to clean up your outs. Plus you have a big draw here and it makes the river play much easier b/c you have force the BB to define his hand on the turn. Also, in this situation, you want to eliminate the SB player who is coming along.


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Exactly which outs will a turn raise clean up? I'm not sure how raising here will make the BB define his hand or what that will even accomplish for you if you do. I'd rather pay 1 bet to see the river with my big draw instead of 2 or 3.

To Jasont: I also don't like the river raise for reasons already started.

Re: 10/20 KJs
 

I don't like the river raise either.

The turn raise is important b/c it helps define the SB and the BB's hand. It also gives us a chance to isolate the chronic bluffer BB. As far as the outs it clears up are potentially our over cards here. All of our other outs are to the virtual nuts, we don't need to clear them up. However, if jason put the BB on air on the flop and chose to smooth call, and then the SB came along as well, in order to win the pot from the BB who I guess he is still putting on air, then a raise is important on the turn.

Re: 10/20 KJs
 

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And if you had kept the pot smaller by just calling preflop, you would have had an easy fold on the flop after whiffing.

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This is an easy, easy raise preflop. Isn't the strategy you're talking about for NL play?

Re: 10/20 KJs
 

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Isn't the strategy you're talking about for NL play?


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i think the strategy hes talking about is for KJo play.

Re: 10/20 KJs
 

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The turn raise is important b/c it helps define the SB and the BB's hand

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What does this mean??? If you raise and they both call or one calls how have you defined their hand at all? And if it has, how does that help you??

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It also gives us a chance to isolate the chronic bluffer BB

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I'm not sure where you're getting "chronic bluffer". He's an aggressive player, but every pair is ahead of us as is almost every flop draw.

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As far as the outs it clears up are potentially our over cards here

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Again, what outs specifically does it clear up? There aren't many hands either player can have here that both: have an out that we can clean up and will fold it.

Re: 10/20 KJs
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The turn raise is important b/c it helps define the SB and the BB's hand

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What does this mean??? If you raise and they both call or one calls how have you defined their hand at all? And if it has, how does that help you??


By raising you make the SB define his hand. If he can call 2 cold then you know that you need to hit one our draws. If the BB just calls after the SB folds then we have the chance to spike a potential pair for the win. It seems to me that a raise does not lose much as far as equity is concerned b/c both of our draws are good... so we have a large amount of equity there so if a raise can gain us additional equity then it can't be all bad.
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It also gives us a chance to isolate the chronic bluffer BB

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I'm not sure where you're getting "chronic bluffer". He's an aggressive player, but every pair is ahead of us as is almost every flop draw.

And so is A-high, however, the OP called on the flop with no pair-no draw against this player. The fact that he could be bluffing here must of been part of the variable that he factored in to justify a call on the flop. Him being a "chronic bluffer" was an inference that I gathered from the OP. Seems to be only way we could justify a call on the flop, unless we are just purely gambling?

[ QUOTE ]
As far as the outs it clears up are potentially our over cards here

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Again, what outs specifically does it clear up? There aren't many hands either player can have here that both: have an out that we can clean up and will fold it.

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What if the SB is tagging along with a hand that contains a J or a K in it, which would make them 2 pair... like TJ or KT or J8... some sort of holding like that... folding the SB here would potentially make our one pair hand good if we make it.

Im not saying that all of this is a great play or not, but we got ourselves stuck in this predicament by making a questionable call on the flop. Then our equity greatly increases on the turn, we should make every effort to win a pot that is increasing in size.

Re: 10/20 KJs
 

The preflop raise is neither terrible nor mandatory in middle position, IMO.

Re: 10/20 KJs
 

[ QUOTE ]
I have a backdoor straight draw, a backdoor flush draw, an overcard K and with his aggression number a J may be good; I could semibluff the A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why not semi bluff the turn here? Not like we hate it.

Re: 10/20 KJs
 

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The preflop raise is neither terrible nor mandatory in middle position, IMO.

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I disagree. With an opponent that loose, with the chance of having a dominating hand, buying position, forcing out hands like AJ or KQ that might have us in very bad shape, exploiting our big-hand value if the blinds come along, and so on and so forth...

Make not raising here bad in my opinion.

I guess it's kind of close because I'd probably limp KTs, but I'm always raising KQs, AJs, often raising KJo (probably 60% against a loose limper here) and so on.


Edit: I misread the post. MP1 is not the 31 villain. Most everything still applies though. I'm raising this against basically everyone.

Re: 10/20 KJs
 

It seems like at 10/20, everyone always thinks everyone else is full of sht (cause they usually are) so you this bluff is unlikely to fold a Q, but I still think it's close enough to be interesting considering SB. If it was HU it would be incorrect.

Re: 10/20 KJs
 

this is a pretty scary board.. 3 handed..

i think the raise was right on the river to get the SB out.. but it also opens up the BB to 3 bet it because he has been betting the whole way on a scary board.. you're probably facing a Q here or maybe JJ?

Re: 10/20 KJs
 

The flop call is very close, I think I would fold. Headsup I would call.

The river I would have checked; I think the chance that SB folds a better hand is very small. I have seen people coldcalling these kind of bets with 3rd pair instantly so I don't make them anymore. Besides I think that BB probably has you beat, he has been betting into 2 people all the way.

Re: 10/20 KJs
 

i understand trying to squeeze the sb out, but what makes you think he needs to be squeezed out in the first place?

Re: 10/20 KJs
 

jason only you can know if this is correct. what is this guys WTSD number? Will he give you credit for AK often enough to ditch his hand? Also, did you ever consider simply folding the flop?