AA line I\'ve never taken before...
 

Opponent is very tight, but his preflop raise selection is wide: VP$IP = 16.52 and Preflop raise % = 7.83 over 345 hands

What do you think?

Garland

Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em, $4 BB (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

MP3 ($517.60)
CO ($253.70)
Button ($78.80)
SB ($418.95)
Garland ($482.40)
UTG ($399.90)
UTG+1 ($539.60)
MP1 ($231.90)
MP2 ($460.70)

Preflop: Garland is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">5 folds</font>,<font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises to $14</font>, SB calls, <font color="#CC3333">Garland raises to $52</font>, MP3 calls $52, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

Flop: ($118) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Garland checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets $76</font>, Garland folds.

Re: AA line I\'ve never taken before...
 

If you had KK/QQ would you still check the flop?

Re: AA line I\'ve never taken before...
 

I think you played it well. Some might argue that you should have lead the flop though.
KK and QQ are opponents most likely holdings. Small chance he has AA. AK isn't really an option.
Then again I'm supposedly weak/tight so lets see what everyone else says.

Edit: The more I read this the more it screams KK. I think hes going to have KK over 70% of the time here. That was a big PF raise to call. You both have deep stacks, and you showed real strength PF. He doesn't want to commit his deepstack against that strength. He also sees folding Kings as being too weak, so he calls. Good Fold.

Re: AA line I\'ve never taken before...
 

[ QUOTE ]
AK isn't really an option.

[/ QUOTE ]

why isn't AK an option? plenty of players play AKo to a re-raise to 50+. and these players will definitely play AKs for 50+. i think you're narrowing down the villain's hand range as a result of that. i lead this flop and slow down after that. or check-call and re-evaluate on the turn.

Re: AA line I\'ve never taken before...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
AK isn't really an option.

[/ QUOTE ]

why isn't AK an option? plenty of players play AKo to a re-raise to 50+. and these players will definitely play AKs for 50+. i think you're narrowing down the villain's hand range as a result of that. i lead this flop and slow down after that. or check-call and re-evaluate on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Check-Calling is horrible. Your only other option is to to lead/fold.

Re: AA line I\'ve never taken before...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
AK isn't really an option.

[/ QUOTE ]

why isn't AK an option? plenty of players play AKo to a re-raise to 50+. and these players will definitely play AKs for 50+. i think you're narrowing down the villain's hand range as a result of that. i lead this flop and slow down after that. or check-call and re-evaluate on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Check-Calling is horrible. Your only other option is to to lead/fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

why is check-calling horrible? care to elaborate? it'll look like a slow play in villain's eyes in my opinion and i doubt he'd bet again on the turn w/ AK. no one can understand your thought process since you type the very minimum.

Re: AA line I\'ve never taken before...
 

Anyone fishy enough to call a 50 dollar re raise with AK is going to be fishy enough to fire another barrel on the turn and river. By check/calling you are slowly committing your stack with a possibility of only 2 outs. You aren't gaining any information and aren't giving the villain the chance to show the strength of his hand and let you get away cheaply.

Re: AA line I\'ve never taken before...
 

To me his hand range is two hands based on that bet : AK or QQ. Wouldn't he re-raise with KK pre-flop? You have one crushed and one crushes you. AK's not calling a three-bet though.

Why wouldn't you lead the flop for half-pot? If he raises you can be done with it - if he calls you're in a tricky spot, but he's got to put you on a big hand as well (AA, KK, QQ, AK) - he's not going to try to bluff you out on the turn with JJ.

Re: AA line I\'ve never taken before...
 

Wow Garland, I seriously need to let go of AA more easily. Nice hand.

Re: AA line I\'ve never taken before...
 

I really think you have to lead the flop here for something. Checking just gives him too much of an opportunity to take the pot away with a hand worse than yours. The way you played it is incredibly weak tight and if anyone is paying attention will probably cause a few more people to play back at you, when they know you will fold after a PF re-raise to one bet.

By that last part, I mean there are really some metagame considerations that I think dictate essentially betting any flop after you re-raise pre-flop. I happen to think an aggressive image is always profitable, IMHO.

Re: AA line I\'ve never taken before...
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you had KK/QQ would you still check the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Against aggressive opponents, certainly. However, a lot of times I bet it myself. I do mix it up...

Garland

Re: AA line I\'ve never taken before...
 

[ QUOTE ]
To me his hand range is two hands based on that bet : AK or QQ. Wouldn't he re-raise with KK pre-flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think more and more players are apt to just call a re-raise with KK rather than put in a 3rd raise, especially from the blinds. This goes for me too, unless I'm going against a particularily loose opponent or maniac.

Garland

Re: AA line I\'ve never taken before...
 

[ QUOTE ]
I really think you have to lead the flop here for something. Checking just gives him too much of an opportunity to take the pot away with a hand worse than yours. The way you played it is incredibly weak tight and if anyone is paying attention will probably cause a few more people to play back at you, when they know you will fold after a PF re-raise to one bet.

By that last part, I mean there are really some metagame considerations that I think dictate essentially betting any flop after you re-raise pre-flop. I happen to think an aggressive image is always profitable, IMHO.

[/ QUOTE ]

You do have a valid point. However, I don't think I suffer from a weak tight image. I'm very much in there betting, raising and re-raising on the battlefield. I certainly have a tight-aggressive image.

I also think there's a time to be aggressive and a time to be practical. The guy is very, very tight...tighter than even me. He just called a massive re-raise...one that will release many smaller pocket pairs. To me, that most likely means KK or QQ. I can live with a Kxx or Qxx flop, but not both as it makes it all that much more likely that he outflopped me.

Yes, I can lead, but I think that's also a futile effort. He calls, and then what? Best case scenario, he has AK and calls or has JJ and folds. I think I can still sleep at night with this check-fold. Think about it: his bet is daring. He truly has to worry that I'm slowplaying a set when I check.

The times I'll nail his a** are the times when the flop comes xxx. That's when I'll spring the check-raise all-in trap because I know he has a big pocket pair, and I know he won't be able to let it go as he's practically pot committed.

Garland

Re: AA line I\'ve never taken before...
 

[ QUOTE ]
The times I'll nail his a** are the times when the flop comes xxx. That's when I'll spring the check-raise all-in trap because I know he has a big pocket pair, and I know he won't be able to let it go as he's practically pot committed.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly why "The way you played it is incredibly weak tight and if anyone is paying attention will probably cause a few more people to play back at you, when they know you will fold after a PF re-raise to one bet" makes no sense. 90% of the time I *want* lots of action when I've put a big chunk of my stack in preflop.

Re: AA line I\'ve never taken before...
 

[ QUOTE ]
if anyone is paying attention will probably cause a few more people to play back at you

[/ QUOTE ]
Unless we're re-raising really light... this is a good thing.

If we check/fold, they think we're more capable of a pre-flop re-raise bluff here, which is a more aggressive image.

Edit: SHould read responseds first.. oh well.

Re: AA line I\'ve never taken before...
 

bet flop

Re: AA line I\'ve never taken before...
 

I like it, I think you run into QQ or KK most of the time

Re: AA line I\'ve never taken before...
 

Check folding here sucks. I would bet here with any PP I called with PF if I was villain.

Re: AA line I\'ve never taken before...
 

To all those saying "nice hand sir" i have a question:

Are you insane?

Without alot more specific information on villian, i don't just think this is bad. It's terrible....Putting villian on AA - QQ based on the fact that he called your reraise and he's played tight over 300 hands is terrbile. And if he's that tight you should probably be reraising this guy with any 2.

Many people who play very tight preflop are not nearly as tight when it comes to calling raises and reraises. Many get attached to 'good' hands. They think, "I'm playing tight but i'm not going to get pushed around".....This guy could have as little as AK-AQ, or AA-77. And checking the flop is giving him a license to steal (just because he's tight doesn't mean he's not gonna bet his 10-10 to find out where he is).

Granted, this is not an ideal flop but sometimes you just gotta shove some chips in the pot. Close your eyes if necessary, bet the flop, and play poker from there!

[edit] one more comment: When you reraise preflop and get 2-way action you should be betting flop 100% of the time.

Re: AA line I\'ve never taken before...
 

[ QUOTE ]
This guy could have as little as AK-AQ, or AA-77

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Words of a true loose-aggressive [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]. You have some good arguments. My check-fold was very much player dependent and the first time I've ever done it. I would bet 1/2 pot or so most of the time. And if someone is calling a massive re-raise with AK-AQ, JJ-&gt;77 without deep enough stacks and proper implied odds, then I'm going to take his money later down the road.

Garland

Re: AA line I\'ve never taken before...
 

Anything but betting the flop here is just guessing. Pre-flop he could put you on a lot of hands including a steal re-raise and he is apt to call with alot more than QQ or KK. Bet the the flop and you can at least make an educated guess. There is no proof here that your behind.

Re: AA line I\'ve never taken before...
 

[ QUOTE ]
one more comment: When you reraise preflop and get 2-way action you should be betting flop 100% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with this sentiment. Even heads-up, there are times to check depending on the situation. I believe there are very few 100% plays in poker, and most of them revolve around the nuts and the river.

Garland

Re: AA line I\'ve never taken before...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Check folding here sucks. I would bet here with any PP I called with PF if I was villain.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: AA line I\'ve never taken before...
 

[ QUOTE ]
To all those saying "nice hand sir" i have a question:

Are you insane?

Without alot more specific information on villian, i don't just think this is bad. It's terrible....Putting villian on AA - QQ based on the fact that he called your reraise and he's played tight over 300 hands is terrbile. And if he's that tight you should probably be reraising this guy with any 2.

Many people who play very tight preflop are not nearly as tight when it comes to calling raises and reraises. Many get attached to 'good' hands. They think, "I'm playing tight but i'm not going to get pushed around".....This guy could have as little as AK-AQ, or AA-77. And checking the flop is giving him a license to steal (just because he's tight doesn't mean he's not gonna bet his 10-10 to find out where he is).

Granted, this is not an ideal flop but sometimes you just gotta shove some chips in the pot. Close your eyes if necessary, bet the flop, and play poker from there!

[edit] one more comment: When you reraise preflop and get 2-way action you should be betting flop 100% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

I couldn't disagree more with this sentiment. Just shoving chips in there is bad poker, we make money by proceeding with calculated decisions which utilize the highest ev possible. Sure our decisions may be wrong occassionally but the majority of the time they are right, and this is one of those cases. Sure he COULD have 23o...
Hell most of the time people raise they COULD have 27o, so next time I see a raise im going to push with 73o because im a huge favorite.

Seriously, this is one of the times you take the hit and fold.

Re: AA line I\'ve never taken before...
 

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[ QUOTE ]
Check folding here sucks. I would bet here with any PP I called with PF if I was villain.

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Re: AA line I\'ve never taken before...
 

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Check folding here sucks.

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This advice sucks. Only an idiot would call that big of a PF raise with anything lower than QQ.
I see arguments for leading and check/folding... BUT saying check/folding sucks is just retarded.
And I know we play against idiots sometimes but thats not an excuse...

Re: AA line I\'ve never taken before...
 

I would bet the flop, I had a villan call my reraise w/QQ from 12 to 50 today with 45s. He hit 3 4's on the flop hence why I know what he had and stated that he had 3 to 1 on this call. Some villans don't understand odds and will call with all types of things.

The tough decision comes if he just calls flat calls the bet, i'm probably ready to dump it now unless i have a good read on the guy.

Re: AA line I\'ve never taken before...
 

[ QUOTE ]
I couldn't disagree more with this sentiment. Just shoving chips in there is bad poker, we make money by proceeding with calculated decisions which utilize the highest ev possible. Sure our decisions may be wrong occassionally but the majority of the time they are right, and this is one of those cases. Sure he COULD have 23o...
Hell most of the time people raise they COULD have 27o, so next time I see a raise im going to push with 73o because im a huge favorite.

Seriously, this is one of the times you take the hit and fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

i often make bold statements on this forum and then somebody picks apart everything i said and basically puts me in my place....This is NOT one of those times.....Check folding this flop IS horrible. And this is one of the worst counter arguments i have seen.

If we think villian only calls a preflop reraise with only AA, KK and QQ we should reraise him EVERY time.....He's raising 7.83% of his hands (many more than just AA-QQ)....We'll pick up so many pots right? WRONG!!!! The reason we don't do this is because people DO call reraises with other hands. And since we hold 2 aces and theres a king and a queen on the flop, hands like 10-10 and J-J become MUCH more likely. Sets aren't that easy to flop.

And as a general poker rule, it's good to have the initiative. If i had reraised preflop with JJ i would definitely bet the flop (even though i was very likely beaten). Betting out with AA is an absolute no brainer. Garland said this is the first time he's ever done something like this. He'd be well off if he made it his last

Re: AA line I\'ve never taken before...
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would bet the flop, I had a villan call my reraise w/QQ from 12 to 50 today with 45s

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
VP$IP = 16.52

[/ QUOTE ]

I seriously doubt a villain who plays so few hands will have something like 45s.

Garland

Re: AA line I\'ve never taken before...
 

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I believe there are very few 100% plays in poker

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I see this all the time and understand where it comes from....But do Realize that it's wrong!!! We should muck 72o under the gun in a 10-handed limit holdem game 100% of the time. And there are infinite other situations that are just as automatic.

Re: AA line I\'ve never taken before...
 

Very well played.

Re: AA line I\'ve never taken before...
 

i think i should call every TAG reraise if i'm in position if they give up this easy.

Re: AA line I\'ve never taken before...
 

Puzzling, but i think i kind of get it. You can lead into him and he's going to fold worse hands. He probably doesn't lead with worse hands if he's really weak/tight. After he calls the reraise pf, your range really deals with how tight the opponent is. I know (few) opponents that calling the reraise means AA-QQ and AK. A lot of those same opponent would push pf with AA and KK. You're either crushing AK or you're crushed by a set. Does the flop bet mean anything to you? Is the amount ~2/3 mean he wants a call or is this just standard. I really think this is a weak line, but I can't see a better one. Leading I think is better, then shutting down if called. If he's really that weak tight, you'll usually get a cheap showdown and the AA-QQ will lead the turn, showing you you're beat.

As always, this really comes down to a read, and if this is the guy that doesn't play without the nuts or close, his pf and flop indicate you're behind his range.

If he's really weak-tight, you're probably not worried about him taking the pot from you, so it's all about value.
I think leading gets the most from AK, so that's what I'd do.

Re: AA line I\'ve never taken before...
 

[ QUOTE ]
If i had reraised preflop with JJ i would definitely bet the flop (even though i was very likely beaten)

[/ QUOTE ]

I like a lot of what you're expressing, but I don't feel it's prudent to put money in the pot if you feel you were "very likely beaten."

Garland

Re: AA line I\'ve never taken before...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I couldn't disagree more with this sentiment. Just shoving chips in there is bad poker, we make money by proceeding with calculated decisions which utilize the highest ev possible. Sure our decisions may be wrong occassionally but the majority of the time they are right, and this is one of those cases. Sure he COULD have 23o...
Hell most of the time people raise they COULD have 27o, so next time I see a raise im going to push with 73o because im a huge favorite.

Seriously, this is one of the times you take the hit and fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

i often make bold statements on this forum and then somebody picks apart everything i said and basically puts me in my place....This is NOT one of those times.....Check folding this flop IS horrible. And this is one of the worst counter arguments i have seen.

If we think villian only calls a preflop reraise with only AA, KK and QQ we should reraise him EVERY time.....He's raising 7.83% of his hands (many more than just AA-QQ)....We'll pick up so many pots right? WRONG!!!! The reason we don't do this is because people DO call reraises with other hands. And since we hold 2 aces and theres a king and a queen on the flop, hands like 10-10 and J-J become MUCH more likely. Sets aren't that easy to flop.

And as a general poker rule, it's good to have the initiative. If i had reraised preflop with JJ i would definitely bet the flop (even though i was very likely beaten). Betting out with AA is an absolute no brainer. Garland said this is the first time he's ever done something like this. He'd be well off if he made it his last

[/ QUOTE ]

Aggie I'm not trying to put you in your place, but there is an absolute argument for Garlands play here. Alot of AVERAGE PLAYERS (WITH 16% VPIP) check behind here with JJ-22 because they are afraid of a C/R on a damn scary flop against a PF re-raiser. Not only that, Garland made a MASSIVE pf raise, someone with 16% VPIP doesn't call that with random cards.

Re: AA line I\'ve never taken before...
 

well played sir.

Re: AA line I\'ve never taken before...
 

[ QUOTE ]
I like a lot of what you're expressing, but I don't feel it's prudent to put money in the pot if you feel you were "very likely beaten."


[/ QUOTE ]

Why? I sometimes make giant reraises when i'm POSITIVE i'm beaten just to see if my opponent will fold. You do realize you don't need the best hand to win in poker right?

Re: AA line I\'ve never taken before...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why? I sometimes make giant reraises when i'm POSITIVE i'm beaten just to see if my opponent will fold. You do realize you don't need the best hand to win in poker right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course I know about not having the best hand to win (i.e. bluffing), but in the specific scenario of a JJ reraise on a KQx board and you feel you're "very likely beaten," what better hand is going to fold other than perhaps AQ?

Garland

Re: AA line I\'ve never taken before...
 

Ok to understand why a weaker line is better than a lead on this flop you have to put yourself in the villains shoes. Based on the information Garland provided the Villain is your average weak/tight.

Both Garland and Villain have deep stacks. Villain raises to 10, then Garland (correctly) re-raises him to 50.

If YOU were the Villain what would you do here (with deep stacks) holding KK?

I'd fold. I really would, considering the stack sizes. Some of the looser players would push. Most "Weak/Tight" Players here would think folding PF to be far too weak, while pushing against a very likely AA as not a very prudent play.

So he calls.
[Keep in mind hes 16% VPIP and a very weak/tight player. It is VERY unlikely he's making this play with 45s, j10s, 22, 1010, or JJ]

Now lets assume villain called with 45s, j10s, 22, 1010, or JJ.

Villain says to himself, "Ok, This guy just re-raised me 50 preflop and when the flop landed high he checked it to me..." Do you REALLY think your average weak/tight player is going to bet into a very likely C/R against another deep stack?

<font color="red"> Would you guys really bet this if checked to with a hand like JJ/1010 or 22? I think thats far too loose... Guys raises you to 50 PF and then checks to you on the flop? Cmon... It smells fishy. </font>

Regardless, understand this guy is just as scared of Garlands hand as Garland is of his. In fact less so, since this guy (again) is a weak/tight.

Guys I implore you to consider stack sizes because it is the most important factor. Shortstacked players are more likely to make moves and are less scared of their plays, for right reason. &lt;Most of those reason's revolving over building a large pot and implied odds&gt;

This player is not making a move here with anything except QQ-KK-AK. He would bet AK, I'll give you that BUT again he won't have AK often enough here to warrant a lead.

I agree 100% with Garlands play, and ask people who disagree to strongly reconsider the play and understand ALL of the factors before making an argument.

Re: AA line I\'ve never taken before...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Of course I know about not having the best hand to win (i.e. bluffing), but in the specific scenario of a JJ reraise on a KQx board and you feel you're "very likely beaten," what better hand is going to fold other than perhaps AQ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, you answered the question yourself.....AQ.....Other hands that will fold include the ones that you still beat or tie including JJ-77, ect. When i say "very likely beaten" I mean &gt;50% of the time. I don't mean 100% of the time.