Bad sticky thread on folding KK preflop.
 

There is a locked sticky thread on whether it can be right to fold KK preflop. The thread proclaims an answer, that it can never be right to fold KK preflop in a SSNL game, with very poor justification. There is no way to respond on the thread, and no links to past discussions, some of which have been good. I expect better of 2+2.

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For a total of 405 KK (that I got from PT) I have come up against AA only 9 (yes, NINE) times.

I think that finally kills off the "should I fold" threads.


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This does not show that you would be wrong to fold KK preflop. (It merely suggests that the player mainly plays 6-max games. You would expect almost 20 AA hands in full games.) The situations where you might consider folding KK preflop look very different from the typical hands in which you have KK.

[img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] Situation A: You feel you have a tight image at a full NL $100 table, and have the table covered. A nonmaniac who normally raises to $4 raises to $5 UTG. You reraise to $20. The UTG player pushes for $150 more.

[img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Situation B: There is a limper in EP. You raise in MP. Everyone folds.

The typical hands where you have KK look like situation B. There were about 400 of those. There might have been 3 hands like situation A, and in all 3 of those, the player had AA. That your opponents didn't have AA in situation B tells you nothing about whether to fold KK in situation A. By the way, in the last 6 times I've looked up players in something resembling situation A at NL $100, the player had AA 5 times.

If you choose not to follow this reasoning, you may continue to crush the NL $25 games. However, you will be stunting the development of mental tools necessary for getting the most out of tougher games where fewer players hate money.

Please get rid of that locked sticky thread. I won't post any more in this forum while that nonsense is there.

Re: Bad sticky thread on folding KK preflop.
 

Unstickied.

Re: Bad sticky thread on folding KK preflop.
 

Q: Okay, so I raise 4xBB preflop with Kings and the player to my immediate left raises. Then another player goes all in. Do I fold?

A: Depends on the opponents. Folding Kings preflop in fear of Aces isn't a liked topic in the forum. Here are some threads that deal with the subject of Kings Vs. potential Aces.

Click here, here, and here.

Sometimes laying Kings down preflop is correct. Most of the time it is not. There is roughly a 3.4% chance, at a full table, that your Kings are up against Aces. Make a decision and go with your instinct.

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Does this entry not cover it pretty well in a short amount of time?

Re: Bad sticky thread on folding KK preflop.
 

I totally agree and I wuz gonna say something similar (not quite as intelligently), but I found the previous thread to be locked as well. It's true almost all the time ur KK will be best...but only a few times will ppl be raising back at you like they want to get ur whole stack in (which I've almost never seen happen w/ QQ, JJ with a reasonable player)...and those situations tend to be AA or KK most of the time in my experience. And if you have the KK...then the other person will often have the rockets. I know I don't rereraise w/ QQ, JJ. I think it has served me well to fold KK sometimes, and they still can't fold it, I get their whole stack in, they don't get mine. Of course if you have a read it's a different situation. But I also like to play rather safely...for I am a college student with limited funds, and try not to gamble a WHOLE lot.

Re: Bad sticky thread on folding KK preflop.
 

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Unstickied.

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That was fast! Thanks.

I wouldn't mind seeing a sticky thread on this subject, but I think it should be more complete.

Re: Bad sticky thread on folding KK preflop.
 

I really think that the topic of folding KK pre-flop garners way too much attention in this forum. In order for it to even be a consideration, you neeed either incredibly deep stacks or a great read, and reads are really incredibly difficult to explain in a thread.

That said, I think that flooding this forum with "Should I fold KK pre-flop" threads is only going to add to numerous other thinly veiled bad beat threads which we now have a forum for.

The sticky was put up because in the last few days there have been a rash of these completely useless posts, and the fact that it has been discussed ad nauseam whether or not to fold KK pre-flop simply lead to a need to bring to attention the fact that it is accepted as common knowledge that it is almost never right to fold KK pre-flop.

Re: Bad sticky thread on folding KK preflop.
 

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In order for [folding KK preflop] to even be a consideration, you neeed either incredibly deep stacks or a great read,

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No, you don't. The example I gave of Situation A was a clear fold. Calling would be a huge error (the question is whether it would cost 1/2 buy-in or more), but the stacks were only 1.5 buy-ins and the read was only that the player was not a maniac.

I'm disappointed that the new sticky repeated theblitz's fallacy. I think sticky threads should be held to a higher standard, particularly on 2+2.

A flood of "bad beat"-type posts (when you have the odds to call with KK preflop or a set on the flop) would not discourage me from contributing to this forum. What does concern me is the lack of coherent discussion and clear thought.

Re: Bad sticky thread on folding KK preflop.
 

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In order for [folding KK preflop] to even be a consideration, you neeed either incredibly deep stacks or a great read,

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No, you don't. The example I gave of Situation A was a clear fold. Calling would be a huge error (the question is whether it would cost 1/2 buy-in or more), but the stacks were only 1.5 buy-ins and the read was only that the player was not a maniac.

I'm disappointed that the new sticky repeated theblitz's fallacy. I think sticky threads should be held to a higher standard, particularly on 2+2.

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No, situation 1 is not a clear fold. If you had the tight image that you claimed to have, a thinking player likely would not push at you with AA because of the high likelihood that you would fold a very wide range of hands with which you would call against a reraise.

The fact of the matter is that folding KK pre-flop is a discussion which has been had far too often and has generated far too little discussion on this board to warrant any attention.

Re: Bad sticky thread on folding KK preflop.
 

If the biggest leak in your game is that you fold KK pre-flop too much, then you really don't need to read the SSNL. I am sure that people are losing money for other reasons and it would be better for the forum as a whole to focus on those things.

Frankly, KK doesn't show up enough for us to spend so much time talking about it. People who want to spend time on that subject would do better the evaluate other parts of their game.

Re: Bad sticky thread on folding KK preflop.
 

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No, situation 1 is not a clear fold.

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Yes, it is, according to my experiments.

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If you had the tight image that you claimed to have, a thinking player likely would not push at you with AA because of the high likelihood that you would fold a very wide range of hands with which you would call against a reraise.

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This makes no sense. Please reread the action. A tight player does not reraise with a wide range of hands. Whether he would always push with AA over my reraise is irrelevant.

Re: Bad sticky thread on folding KK preflop.
 

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Frankly, KK doesn't show up enough for us to spend so much time talking about it.

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That may be true, but

[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Being unable to fold KK preflop can cost 1 big blind every 100 hands when you play full ring games. It depends on the stack sizes.

[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] The same logic applies to many other situations.

Re: Bad sticky thread on folding KK preflop.
 

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Being unable to fold KK preflop can cost 1 big blind every 100 hands when you play full ring games. It depends on the stack sizes.

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Precisely, and with the typical short stacks of most small stakes games, you would be costing yourself far more money by incorrectly folding KK when you're ahead than you would by incorrectly calling when you're behind.

Re: Bad sticky thread on folding KK preflop.
 

pzhon -

A rash of bad beat posts might not dissuade you from contributing to this forum, but it does contribute to the resons why some good posters eventually leave a forum. If a forum has a lot of noise then that forum won't gather new contributors, and could eventually chase away the regulars.

I've seen this actually happen here at 2+2. Before moderators were introduced to the micro forum, it was largely community moderated. Some of the most visible posters (including myself) took steps to moderate the forum in the only ways that we could - by posting PSA type posts & being critical of noise. But in the ebb and flow of the enthusiasm of the leading posters, there came a point eventually where there was less effort to moderate the forum, and the noise ratio climbed up. The enthusiasm of the leading posters declined some more in a cyclic pattern, and eventually people started to leave. It took a great deal of effort to bring it back around.

In my interpretation, one of our jobs as the moderators (not our only job) of this forum is to keep the signal:noise ratio high becasue of the caustic effect that noise has on the forum's quality. Bad beat posts contribute a lot of noise to the forum.

Our sticky thread regarding KK is not intended to be the end-all, be-all preflop strategy post for KK. We acknowledge that there are times when it's right to fold KK preflop. But we also know that it takes special circumstances which don't often occur at this level. We know that we should all be cognizant and consider these special circumstances, and for that reason our sticky is only temporary. It is only intended to stem the flop of bad beat posts. Once the post has served it's purpose, it will come down.

I hope this makes some sense of why we created the sticky, and I hope we can cooperate to keep the quality of this forum high.

Re: Bad sticky thread on folding KK preflop.
 

We are taking this situation very seriously. And after further consideration & discussions with other mods, we've come to the conclusion that ultimately pzhon, you were correct:

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I think sticky threads should be held to a higher standard, particularly on 2+2.

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I agree. Strategy posts should not be stickied because none can be correct in all cases. However, the situation with KK is correct often enough that except under extreme circumstances does it need to be addressed. Rare as these circumstances may be, if we hope to improve as players we should be able to discuss and consider them.

However, this is not a green light for people to post thier bad beat with KK as a special exception. I still stand by what I said in this thread about our job as moderators. We need to encourage a good signal:noise ratio, and bad beat posts erode signal.

So, the sticky is gone. It won't be replaced. In the future, bad beat posts will be dealt with swiftly by being moved or locked. If bad beat posts continue despite this, we may post a public service announcement regarding that sort of posting. But it won't be a strategy post.

Hopefully, this will work out better for SSNL.

Re: Bad sticky thread on folding KK preflop.
 

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Q: Okay, so I raise 4xBB preflop with Kings and the player to my immediate left raises. Then another player goes all in. Do I fold?

A: Depends on the opponents. Folding Kings preflop in fear of Aces isn't a liked topic in the forum. Here are some threads that deal with the subject of Kings Vs. potential Aces.

Click here, here, and here.

Sometimes laying Kings down preflop is correct. Most of the time it is not. There is roughly a 3.4% chance, at a full table, that your Kings are up against Aces. Make a decision and go with your instinct.

--

Does this entry not cover it pretty well in a short amount of time?

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Skeme is the nuts. Your FAQ is seriously under-utilized by noobs on this forum.

Re: Bad sticky thread on folding KK preflop.
 

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In my interpretation, one of our jobs as the moderators (not our only job) of this forum is to keep the signal:noise ratio high becasue of the caustic effect that noise has on the forum's quality.

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I agree with the goal of increasing the signal:noise thread.

Making a sticky thread about folding KK preflop that directs people to the FAQ's answer or past threads should increase the signal:noise ratio.

Including a fallacious argument will lower the signal:noise ratio. I do not understand why theblitz's ridiculous statistic was included after my repeated objections, but I simply won't contribute to this forum while a gross error in logic is at the top, along with a message saying that discussions will be locked.

Re: Bad sticky thread on folding KK preflop.
 

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Your FAQ is seriously under-utilized by noobs on this forum.

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No kidding. There are way too many threads about things I cover in the FAQ. I feel so unappreciated. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]