Dignity
 

What value, if any, does dignity have for the Christian?

Re: Dignity
 

Another trick question with a hidden agenda no doubt.

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Why would it be different than anyone else's ?

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What the hell does this question mean?

Re: Dignity
 

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Another trick question with a hidden agenda no doubt.

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I assure you that's not what it is. Since it apparently wasn't very clear to anyone, let me expand my question, and give my answer.

I'm asking what value dignified behavior has in the life of a Christian, if he lives by the bible? By dignity I'm talking self-respect, poise, acting with "inherent nobility and worth" (dictionary.com), etc.

I think that Christian teachings are against dignity in its followers. Turning the other cheek isn't what I would call dignified behavior. Lying prostrate before God also is not dignified. Therefore, I don't think dignity has any value for Christian life. Correct me if I'm wrong.

On the other hand, dignity seems very important for atheists and even nontheistic religions. Having dignity seems to imply that one values one's life while on earth. It can even be an act of rebellion against death, against the temptation to weakness -- a worthy display of inner strength. Whereas Christians (should?) turn against human pride, atheists should live to prove that it exists.

I'm not poking fun at Christians, just trying to see what their take on this is, if I'm right about their view on dignity.

Re: Dignity
 

There is a difference between dignity, that is, the innate worth that every individual has as a result of his being a child of God, and which demands that he be treated with respect by others, and the use of the word you are giving it, which is merely self-pride. While part of the meaning of the dignity of God's children means that they also should respect and value themselves, humility is a greater virtue.

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"There is a difference between dignity, that is, the innate worth that every individual has as a result of his being a child of God, and which demands that he be treated with respect by others, and the use of the word you are giving it, which is merely self-pride."

Self-pride is the display of that innate worth if we are talking about ACTING with dignity. You are saying that Christians have dignity but should not give an outward appearance of it?

"While part of the meaning of the dignity of God's children means that they also should respect and value themselves, humility is a greater virtue."

Humility is devaluing oneself. How can both be virtues at the same time if they are opposites? Are there certain times that call for one and other times that call for the other?

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There is no contradiction in one correctly valuing himself and recognizing his fundamental dignity, while at the same time acknowledging his limitations and shortcomings and acting with humility in his relations with others and before God. However the true contradiction is having an inflated ego and notion of one's self-worth and acting pridefully and arrogantly with others and before God.

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Turning the other cheek isn't what I would call dignified behavior.

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Why not?

Keeping one's dignity under assault seems in large part to mean not sinking to their level, turning to their tactics, etc.

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This is a very neat and well-packaged answer. However, it doesn't play out like this in real life. If a man lays prostrate before God, he sacrifices his dignity. He is essentially saying, "I am nothing without You, God." Where is his self-worth? Therefore, he has no dignity before God.

Secondly, if another man slaps him across the face and insults him, he is supposed to turn the other cheek in an act of complete submission. This time he sacrifices his dignity and self-worth before other humans.

In both cases humility takes precedence over dignity. Therefore, before God and before man, the Christian is not supposed to act with dignity.

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If a man lays prostrate before God, he sacrifices his dignity. He is essentially saying, "I am nothing without You, God." Where is his self-worth? Therefore, he has no dignity before God.

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If you assume there is a God, as Christians believe, then you would not exist without God. Therefore, the statement that "I am nothing without You, God" would be completely accurate. It has nothing to do with lack of self-respect.

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Secondly, if another man slaps him across the face and insults him, he is supposed to turn the other cheek in an act of complete submission. This time he sacrifices his dignity and self-worth before other humans

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Christians do not believe this.

Re: Dignity
 

Matt R, I think you might be reading into my post to find a hidden agenda. There's nothing more than what meets the eye.

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If you assume there is a God, as Christians believe, then you would not exist without God. Therefore, the statement that "I am nothing without You, God" would be completely accurate. It has nothing to do with lack of self-respect.

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That's fine, but I'm not questioning the validity of this behavior. I just want to get idea of the value of dignity in Christianity. It is my opinion that it holds little value. And you say it has nothing to do with self-respect, but it has everything to do with displaying self-respect.


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Christians do not believe this.

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Really? I did when I was a Christian. How do you interpret Matthew 5:38-45?

Re: Dignity
 

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Matt R, I think you might be reading into my post to find a hidden agenda. There's nothing more than what meets the eye.

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? I simply responded to your statements.

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That's fine, but I'm not questioning the validity of this behavior. I just want to get idea of the value of dignity in Christianity. It is my opinion that it holds little value. And you say it has nothing to do with self-respect, but it has everything to do with displaying self-respect.

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I'm not sure I follow you. The value of dignity for a Christian is the same as it is for a non-Christian. Not including obvious person-to-person differences which occur regardless of religious beliefs. You claim you used to be a Christian. How was your self-respect different then than it is now? If you have more self-respect now, are you sure it's not just because you grew as a person, and not because you're "non-Christian" now?

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Really? I did when I was a Christian. How do you interpret Matthew 5:38-45?

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This passage should not be taken literally, and context is extremely important. There are other passages from the Bible where Jesus clearly states you should stand up for yourself. I believe an accepted interpratation is that Jesus is essentially saying "Don't let evil overcome you." As in, don't let your hatred for this person who is mis-treating you guide your actions. If he's mistreating you because of your religion due to his ignorance, he can't help this, and you should not hold it against him. etc., etc. I'm sure you get the idea. But, if he has legitimate malicious intent, you should fight back.

I'm sure that there are many many people who view the passage literally, but when you start to do that the Bible starts to make zero sense in general. I'm no theologian though, but this is what I've been taught in the past and is my interpretation.

Re: Dignity
 

Matt gave you the logical reason why my previous post was correct *assuming* Christianity and the God it believes in to be true.

And likewise, I did say that because of the innate dignity every person has, then others should act with respect toward others. Indeed that is part of what humility means.

Re: Dignity
 

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I'm not sure I follow you. The value of dignity for a Christian is the same as it is for a non-Christian. Not including obvious person-to-person differences which occur regardless of religious beliefs. You claim you used to be a Christian. How was your self-respect different then than it is now? If you have more self-respect now, are you sure it's not just because you grew as a person, and not because you're "non-Christian" now?

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I put a much higher value on dignity now than I did as a Christian. I also place little value on humility, except in certain circumstances. A Christian is supposed to deny oneself. I no longer see the value in doing this, and often I view this sort of thing as false modesty.

Further, I disagree with your statement that dignity necessarily holds the same value for Christians and non-Christians. It depends of course what the non-Christian is. In my case, I am an atheist. For me there is no "right" way to live, so I have to create values for myself. Dignity is a characteristic which I happen to value. Also, since I feel this way about all humans, I think humans have a hell of a lot of dignity since no God tells them what to do.

For Christians, however, there is a God who commands. By virtue of his commanding nature, humans are thus relegated to be obeyers. Therefore, they lack any dignity other than that which this God decides to give them. Because he gives them dignity, and they don't have it on their own accord, it is a less significant dignity than that of the atheist's.

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Stop misusing the word "dignity". You mean "pride".

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pride ( P ) Pronunciation Key (prd)
n.
A sense of one's own proper dignity or value; self-respect.


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Re: Dignity
 

Sense of X does not equal X.

connotation/denotation.

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You are messing with the connotation. Forget the term "dignity" as it is used in religious talk and think of it in secular terms. It means self-worth, period. We're not talking about the "natural human worth given to all humans by God." Am I right in thinking this is the dignity you are referring to? We should clear this up because that definition relies on religion and is irrelevant.

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Even though you are using the word dignity as a synonym for pride, they are not exactly equivalent. So what is your objection to just using the word "pride"?

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In one sense of the word pride, yes, it is a synonym. I won't use pride because of the many other connotations of the word. Let's clear things up: regardless of the word, the definition I'm using is this: sense of self-worth OR sense of the worth of humanity in general by humans (IOW how high humans regard humanity).

It is my understanding that Christians have a rather low regard for self and for humanity compared to people with other ideologies.

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That's one hell of a logical leap you're making. Are you sure you don't have a "hidden agenda"?

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It depends of course what the non-Christian is. In my case, I am an atheist.

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So, you're actually making this argument specifically for a Christian theist vs. an atheist.

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For me there is no "right" way to live, so I have to create values for myself. Dignity is a characteristic which I happen to value.

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I'm not sure what you're saying. Are you saying that people who do not create values for themself have less dignity than those who do? Or are you saying that because you create your own values, you chose dignity to have high value, therefore you have more dignity than a Christian? If it's the latter, I have no idea why you make the assumption that Christians have low self-respect. If you could point out the connection, that would be great, because I don't see where it's coming from. If it's the former (that by creating values for yourself, you have more dignity), then you're telling me that you do not get any of your values from outside sources. Are you trying to tell me that your parents and society do not influence your values in any way? If not, how do you choose what your values are... is it simply on a whim? Christians happen to believe in the moral teachings of Jesus, so they follow them. The same way you follow the morality of society. If you have some issue with Jesus' ideology, I'd be interested to see where the disagreement is.

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For Christians, however, there is a God who commands. By virtue of his commanding nature, humans are thus relegated to be obeyers. Therefore, they lack any dignity other than that which this God decides to give them. Because he gives them dignity, and they don't have it on their own accord, it is a less significant dignity than that of the atheist's.

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God either exists or he doesn't. When a Christian chooses to believe in him, or an atheist chooses not to, he doesn't pop in and out of existence. Therefore, this argument carries little weight because if God exists, he has equal "authority" over everyone. If he doesn't, then he holds no authority over theists or atheists alike. If you're implying that choosing belief takes away ones dignity, I still don't see the connection. Most value systems for those that believe in God (I believe you're referring to Jesus in particular), are perfectly in line with accepted societal values.

No offense, but your argument is kind of all over the place, and I don't really see the connection you're attempting to make with belief in God and lack of dignity. So, if I'm picking the wrong points to argue, I apologize.

Re: Dignity
 

We are both coming from opposite ideologies so it's going to be hard to find any common ground. That said I don't think anything really meaningful is going to come out of this debate. It wasn't my intention to fuel a debate to begin with, actually. By "no hidden agenda" I meant I only wanted to hear others' opinions on this subject and not try to refute anybody. Just because I'm an atheist does not mean I'm always trying to convince believers they are wrong.

So far I haven't heard any convincing arguments that Christianity values human dignity very highly. You would be right in saying that Christians can have dignity and still be 'good Christians'. But, the amount of dignity (regard, esteem, self-respect) one has should be kept in check, no? If it gets too high it is considered 'prideful' (a sin). It would be better for the Christian to err on the side of humility and meekness than on the side of valuing oneself too highly.

If you don't agree with these last statements, Matt or BluffThis, I can look up corresponding scripture. Although I'm pretty sure this is pretty basic doctrine. Off the top of my head, Jesus says something like "the first shall be last and the last shall be first." He preaches humility, the sin of pride, etc. The OT teaches the infinite glory of god, the importance of not angering him by disobeying him. Nowhere do I recall any mention of the importance of human affairs, of purporting oneself with dignity, of there being any dignity to human life. Even if there is some minor reference to these things, it is hugely overshadowed by other doctrines, which makes me think dignity is of little importance to Christianity.

Re: Dignity
 

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It is my understanding that Christians have a rather low regard for self and for humanity compared to people with other ideologies.

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And how could you possibly think that? The teachings of christianity are all about that we are the children of God. This confers an inestimable dignity on each person, and thus also on the whole human race. And you seem either unable or unwilling to note the difference between one having a proper sense of self-worth, and that not meaning that one's self-worth is somehow diminished by also understanding one's limititations and shortcomings and not acting pridefully in relations with others or before God, who created us, and thus to whom we should show the same respect and deference and obedience as a human child to its father.

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I'm obviously arguing from a secular point of view. The only thing I'm unwilling to accept is your constant habit of assuming the truth of christianity when I'm trying to have a non-biased discussion.

Re: Dignity
 

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I'm obviously arguing from a secular point of view. The only thing I'm unwilling to accept is your constant habit of assuming the truth of christianity when I'm trying to have a non-biased discussion.

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Well that is so funny. Why don't you read your own original post that started this thread. You asked what "dignity" meant to a christian and that is viewpoint from which my replies have been given.

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You still don't get it. I do want a christian's viewpoint on dignity in living his life on earth. No assumption of the truth of christianity is needed for this answer.

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So you want the viewpoint of a christian, but want him not to assume christianity is true in giving it? I have told you what my viewpoint is, which is the catholic christian view. If I didn't believe christianity to be true then I wouldn't believe it that way. And since this is a viewpoint thing and not a proof thing, there really is no assumption of any kind. I haven't quoted the bible once as "proof" of anything, and I never do in debates with non-believers except to explain why I believe something.

Your asking a christian for a viewpoint but wanting him to first assume christianity isn't true, is the same as your asking a black man for an opinion on racial issues, but to first pretend he is white.

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EV,

Read the book or watch the movie <u>To Kill A Mockingbird</u>. Check out the scene when Bob Ewell spits in Atticus Finch’s face. In the book Atticus remarks later, when talking about the incident, “I wish Bob Ewell wouldn’t chew tobacco”. The movie shows Atticus taking his handkerchief out of his pocket and with utter restraint simply wiping Ewell’s tobacco juiced saliva from his own face.

Atticus Finch is perhaps the most (certainly in the top 5) dignified character in all of literature (not limited to American Lit.) in my opinion. If you are familiar with the TKAM, then you have the answer to your question. If Atticus Finch doesn't answer your question, then I think you really aren’t looking for the Christian viewpoint of dignity.

RJT

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Thanks RJT, that's a pretty clear definition of christian dignity. We can put this to bed now.

I think most of the disagreements in this discussion were a result of the word 'value' as I use it. Christians in general don't put a great deal of value on this life, so dignty would naturally be less valuable for them than it is for people who are concerned only with this life. Of course, so is everything else, but I chose to look at one aspect of life.