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Avatar pushing the limits....
look at livinitup's avatar in this post...
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...;gonew=1#UNREAD tooo close to swastika for my likeing....but i can understand if its acceptable. Barron |
Re: Avatar pushing the limits....
I would say we msg him and delete it explaining why, that seems pretty blatant on whoever made it's part, whether he knows it or not.
~Justin |
Re: Avatar pushing the limits....
oh come on guys. Yeah I see what you see but that is pretty harmless. Its green and a cactus, anyone who would get offended by that is likely wanting to get offended.
Let's not get to PC crazy |
Re: Avatar pushing the limits....
the image name is 'cactuar'. this is the first hit on google:
http://tonberry-cactuar.tripod.com/cactuar.html obviously not malicious man |
Re: Avatar pushing the limits....
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Re: Avatar pushing the limits....
[ QUOTE ]
gg. It's a character from Final Fantasy III. Edit to add: Wikipedia. [/ QUOTE ] I do find it interesting in this thread that he references "American History X". Great film, of course. But an interesting reference under the circumstances. This is not the first time his avatar has been brought up for discussion (not sure if the last was here or in a forum). Given the Final Fantasy reference I'm okay with it even though my first reaction is pretty negative. I would, however, shoot him a PM and just tell him that it's been brought up a couple of times and people who don't know the reference might be offended. He might want to consider taking it down himself. |
Re: Avatar pushing the limits....
if people are actually bitching he could just pick another picture of the same thing. this does sound a little silly though.
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Re: Avatar pushing the limits....
I think if people are bitching about that, it says more about than it does about the avatar.
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Re: Avatar pushing the limits....
Apart from being cactuar, it's also not a swastika (note the arms aren't all in the same direction).
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Re: Avatar pushing the limits....
There is a clear and obvious resemblance to a swastika, whether or not it technically meets the definition.
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Re: Avatar pushing the limits....
[ QUOTE ]
There is a clear and obvious resemblance to a swastika, whether or not it technically meets the definition. [/ QUOTE ] no doubt and I understand that nobody wants to do anything to it now. But I don't think we should even be sending members PMs over something like this. I just think it makes out job much harder when it comes time to take action and lends credance to whole thought police, nazi [censored] that i'm sure we all have read again and again There are going to be times when certain members become offended it's going to happen on any message board of this size. It's no big deal in my opinion that this happens |
Re: Avatar pushing the limits....
[ QUOTE ]
There is a clear and obvious resemblance to a swastika, whether or not it technically meets the definition. [/ QUOTE ] I disagree, I've seen that avatar many times and never thought that. Half of the appendages are going in the right direction to be a swastika and it's got an extra one because of the head. So basically 40% of the avatar looks like half of a swastika. |
Re: Avatar pushing the limits....
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] There is a clear and obvious resemblance to a swastika, whether or not it technically meets the definition. [/ QUOTE ] I disagree, I've seen that avatar many times and never thought that. Half of the appendages are going in the right direction to be a swastika and it's got an extra one because of the head. So basically 40% of the avatar looks like half of a swastika. [/ QUOTE ] I would never have thought swastika until I read this thread. |
Re: Avatar pushing the limits....
[ QUOTE ]
There is a clear and obvious resemblance to a swastika to many people, whether or not it technically meets the definition. [/ QUOTE ] FMP |
Re: Avatar pushing the limits....
I'm going to be honest and it's not my intent to direct this at anyone person or offend anyone but that this was even grounds for a thread is quite bothersome to me.
It's really caused me to reconsider some of my moderating policies and I think a lot of us need to take a step back and make sure we aren't going overboard with getting rid of things that we as individuals are sensitive to. Like I said I've probably been as guilty as anyone of this in the past but I've noticed a definite trend since becoming active on the board once again and it's not a good one. I'm all for banning jackasses and creating a conductive environment to learning and entertainment but I don't think we should be out there looking for and getting rid of everything that may offend someone or may hurt someone's feelings. I don't think that is the type of board we want and I don't think that is the type of board the majority of the members want. Let's focus on dealing with things like trolls, spam, obvious shitheads and other things which really result in the forum not being fun for anyone and let the members decide of they are offended and how they deal with it. I once had an avatar of some dude getting sucker punched in the face. I thought it was harmless but another member PM'd me and said that had happened to him recently and it really bothered him to see. He asked if I would take it down but understood if I wouldn't. I decided to but I would have been really bothered if instead of it being handled like that a user mod would have sent me a PM or taken it down because it may offend others. Basically when it comes to all these things whether they are avatars or myspace threads let's be a little more open and little less likely to take action in all but the most extreme cases |
Re: Avatar pushing the limits....
I followed the link and couldn't figure out what was going on, I went through the entire thread. Then I went back and read this and realized it's the catuar that's been worried about? That thing's in a whole slew of Final Fantasy games, and if you see it in the game its arms move back and forth to make it look like it's running - it's definitely not a symbol of hate. I actually think this whole thing is kind of absurd. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]
Surf |
Re: Avatar pushing the limits....
[ QUOTE ]
I'm all for banning jackasses and creating a conductive environment to learning and entertainment but I don't think we should be out there looking for and getting rid of everything that may offend someone or may hurt someone's feelings. [/ QUOTE ] Yes. The main problem here isn't people wanting to remove offensive content. I think everyone can agree that there is a line some things actually do cross. What's worrisome is that line seems to be constantly moving towards catering to a progressively smaller number of people. This is not good, IMO. Clearly the people who mod forums will always impose some of their own sensibilities. That's to be expected. But those sensibilities always need to be balanced with what's reasonable and best for the forums. The cactuar may look somewhat like a swastika, but is that really something that needs to be addressed by us? A lot of things bear some resemblance to a lot of other things. If I used an image of a big cucumber as my avatar, would that be something that required the attention of a moderator? It looks somewhat like a penis, and we all know that we wouldn't allow an avatar with genitalia on 2+2. Yet, I bet more people would see a penis in a cucumber than a swastika in a cactuar. Even so, I believe that if I posted about an offensive cucumber avatar in this forum, all of you would call me crazy. If we start going after stuff that, to some people, looks somewhat like something else that's offensive, we really have gone the wrong direction. That would be catering to a very small group of people. We should not be doing that, mostly because it would be an entirely futile effort. Even if it doesn't make any sense, some people will always be offended by particular actions, words, and images. So, let's try to stay reasonable, guys. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...mbocactuar.jpg |
Re: Avatar pushing the limits....
As the guy who was championing the senstive in other threads, this avatar is fine.
Yeah- we need to be aware, and it's good that as mod we're having these conversations, it helps establish standards and get us all thinking and talking, but this does seem a little far. |
Re: Avatar pushing the limits....
Um, even if the avatar was a blatant swastika look-alike, what's wrong with that exactly?
GoT |
Re: Avatar pushing the limits....
[ QUOTE ]
Um, even if the avatar was a blatant swastika look-alike, what's wrong with that exactly? GoT [/ QUOTE ] this is my feeling as well and what I was trying to get at with my long winded reply |
Re: Avatar pushing the limits....
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Um, even if the avatar was a blatant swastika look-alike, what's wrong with that exactly? GoT [/ QUOTE ] I believe that would be considered objectionable material per the T&C. Some would also consider it threatening. Obviously those terms are very subjective but nonetheless it would in my opinion fall in at least one of those categories. We have to use our discretion just like when enforcing the T&C prohibition against posting "obscene" or "pornographic" material (obviously both also very subjective). With regard to those, there is certainly more tolerance for links within threads than pictures within threads or avatars. |
Re: Avatar pushing the limits....
"I hate gorie" is probably a good example of an avatar we don't want. I'm assuming this is being directed at the poster?
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Re: Avatar pushing the limits....
[ QUOTE ]
"I hate gorie" is probably a good example of an avatar we don't want. I'm assuming this is being directed at the poster? [/ QUOTE ] yeah but I think this POST should give it some context. I can certainly change it though |
Re: Avatar pushing the limits....
When I first saw the avatar I thought you had better judgement than that. Reading the post, nh. Benefit of the doubt.
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Re: Avatar pushing the limits....
[ QUOTE ]
There is a clear and obvious resemblance to a swastika, whether or not it technically meets the definition. [/ QUOTE ] that is all i was saying. the other picture of the "cactuar" (in this thread....ive never seen this creature before) is way different, has a background, and has a leg moving and doesn't remind one of a swastika the second you look at it. i guess being who i am i took the visual hint to strongly and it clearly reflects upon me that i took the time to post it here. all i was doing was asking whether or not that avatar was pushing the limits. no harm, no foul. reading this thread: am i to understand that if somebody had an avatar that was ACTUALLY a swastika (black) on a while background on a red flag that we would be wrong to send that person a PM kindly asking them to change it??? -Barron |
Re: Avatar pushing the limits....
fwiw, i don't like seeing the guy being killed by an aeroplane in your gif
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Re: Avatar pushing the limits....
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reading this thread: am i to understand that if somebody had an avatar that was ACTUALLY a swastika (black) on a while background on a red flag that we would be wrong to send that person a PM kindly asking them to change it??? [/ QUOTE ] Dude, it's a political party. Since when do/should we decide which of these parties are "good" and which are "bad"? If I decided to make my avatar the symbol of the Democratic party, would/should it be asked to be removed? I completely understand the bias being show given where we were raised (most of us) and the existing bias of our education system and various media, but I would've hoped we're all intelligent enough to be able to think objectively. Our job here isn't to enforce posters' personal political views nor should it be. If you really think what happened under the Nazi party makes doing such a small thing as allowing a picture of their symbol to exist an atrocious and gasp worthy, consider the Trail of Tears or any other of American-committed atrocities throughout our history (legalized slavery, internment camps, etc). Is one worse than the other in principle? Do they necessarily make the political parties in power when they occurred "evil"? Edit: I should add, I do understand if 2+2 would decide not to allow avatars of the Nazi symbol since this forum's main purpose is a marketing tool. I am simply stating my opinion that believing the symbol is in some way "evil" or "bad" is imo dumb, and more specifically the seeming obviousness of the above that so many seem to believe. GoT |
Re: Avatar pushing the limits....
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[ QUOTE ] reading this thread: am i to understand that if somebody had an avatar that was ACTUALLY a swastika (black) on a while background on a red flag that we would be wrong to send that person a PM kindly asking them to change it??? [/ QUOTE ] Dude, it's a political party. Since when do/should we decide which of these parties are "good" and which are "bad"? [/ QUOTE ] We probably don't want the forum blocked in Germany, though. So there's an external reason to give Nazi paraphenalia the boot. |
Re: Avatar pushing the limits....
[ QUOTE ]
fwiw, i don't like seeing the guy being killed by an aeroplane in your gif [/ QUOTE ] 1) I agree. 2) Is that how Brits spell airplane? |
Re: Avatar pushing the limits....
Apparently I am dumb.
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Re: Avatar pushing the limits....
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] reading this thread: am i to understand that if somebody had an avatar that was ACTUALLY a swastika (black) on a while background on a red flag that we would be wrong to send that person a PM kindly asking them to change it??? [/ QUOTE ] Dude, it's a political party. Since when do/should we decide which of these parties are "good" and which are "bad"? [/ QUOTE ] We probably don't want the forum blocked in Germany, though. So there's an external reason to give Nazi paraphenalia the boot. [/ QUOTE ] So if GoT made his avatar the image below, Germany would block 2+2? I'm not sure that makes a whole lot of sense. http://www.keyway.ca/gif/naziflag.gif |
Re: Avatar pushing the limits....
I think this is a good post and likely vastly different from the way many people think.
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Re: Avatar pushing the limits....
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] reading this thread: am i to understand that if somebody had an avatar that was ACTUALLY a swastika (black) on a while background on a red flag that we would be wrong to send that person a PM kindly asking them to change it??? [/ QUOTE ] Dude, it's a political party. Since when do/should we decide which of these parties are "good" and which are "bad"? [/ QUOTE ] We probably don't want the forum blocked in Germany, though. So there's an external reason to give Nazi paraphenalia the boot. [/ QUOTE ] So if GoT made his avatar the image below, Germany would block 2+2? I'm not sure that makes a whole lot of sense. http://www.keyway.ca/gif/naziflag.gif [/ QUOTE ] I come out like this. Unless 2+2 (matt, etc) specifically decides to ban an avatar like that we should not be the ones deciding what type of political or cultural statements people make. The truth is there are people who look at a cross or a picture of Jesus Christ in the same light other's look at that swastika. |
Re: Avatar pushing the limits....
[ QUOTE ]
I come out like this. Unless 2+2 (matt, etc) specifically decides to ban an avatar like that we should not be the ones deciding what type of political or cultural statements people make. The truth is there are people who look at a cross or a picture of Jesus Christ in the same light other's look at that swastika. [/ QUOTE ] I think this is right on the money. I had an avatar at one point that contained swastika images and it was not revieved well by the mods. Maybe that should be taken as precedant and maybe not. I think it would be best it Mat just chimed in with his opinion. |
Re: Avatar pushing the limits....
Why are pornographic or obscene avatars not allowed?
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Re: Avatar pushing the limits....
Caesar does not usually opine on petty avatar matters, but this thread borders on ridiculous. What limit, exactly, does this avatar push? I have seen Cactuar on countless occasions and not once has it conjured visions of the Third Reich in my mind. I had never even come close to making this connection until this thread. Had the avatar looked something like this, you would probably have a case
http://img370.imageshack.us/img370/9...actuar25zw.gif Those offended by the original image (as mentioned in an earlier post) are out searching desperately to be offended. We might as well ban the letter X while we're at it, because if I cock my head at the correct angle and squint long enough, I see a swastika. Caesar will not be associated with such ludicrous censorship. Am I not merciful? |
Re: Avatar pushing the limits....
Here is a link to the wikipedia page that contains some history of the swastika. I'm not sure if it has been mentioned that the symbol itself really didn't have any negative meaning for most of its history.
Wikipedia [ QUOTE ] I should add, I do understand if 2+2 would decide not to allow avatars of the Nazi symbol since this forum's main purpose is a marketing tool. [/ QUOTE ] I believe this is the main reason this site probably shouldn't want people using swastika avatars. Regardless of how much logical sense it makes, I think more people would be put off by that image than an avatar which contains nudity. The main base of 2+2 is overwhelmingly male. It's hard for me to imagine that (primarily young) men are more likely to be offended by a topless woman than a swastika. It just makes sense for 2+2 to play it safe with actual swastikas, IMO. |
Re: Avatar pushing the limits....
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Why are pornographic or obscene avatars not allowed? [/ QUOTE ] Lloyd I think it's the same reason a magazine could have Swastika on its cover and be sold openly, but a pornagraphic cover would need to be sold within the same bookstore with something blocking the cover from public view. Additionally I believe the T&C's note material that is obscene or pornagraphic - is this right? |
Re: Avatar pushing the limits....
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Why are pornographic or obscene avatars not allowed? [/ QUOTE ] Lloyd I think it's the same reason a magazine could have Swastika on its cover and be sold openly, but a pornagraphic cover would need to be sold within the same bookstore with something blocking the cover from public view. Additionally I believe the T&C's note material that is obscene or pornagraphic - is this right? [/ QUOTE ] Score another one for censored. |
Re: Avatar pushing the limits....
We obviously have a very different opinion. And your analogy has flaws. I will move on.
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