Two Plus Two Older Archives - River call. Obvious?

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SomethingClever

12-09-2005 06:14 PM

River call. Obvious?

Humor me.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
Hero raises, 4 folds, BB calls.

Flop: (4.33 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls.

Turn: (3.16 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls.

River: (5.16 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 7.16 BB

LoaferGee12

12-09-2005 06:25 PM

Re: River call. Obvious?

Yeah, I call it.

asofel

12-09-2005 06:28 PM

Re: River call. Obvious?

He's pulling a standard clarkmeister...don't let him get away with it [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

callydrias

12-09-2005 07:03 PM

Re: River call. Obvious?

I don't think it's obvious, at least with no read. I'd call and expect to see a middle [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (who doesn't lead or c/r the flop with the A or Q??). Really this is a hugely player-dependent decision though.

12-09-2005 07:31 PM

Re: River call. Obvious?

The Clarkmeister applies when the 4th of the suit comes on the river.

I don't see many Villain's playing this line without a spade. I fold against an unknown.

DCWildcat

12-09-2005 09:50 PM

Re: River call. Obvious?

Impossible without a read? This is a horrible line against some opponents and the only line against others.

SomethingClever

12-09-2005 10:46 PM

Re: River call. Obvious?

[ QUOTE ]
Impossible without a read? This is a horrible line against some opponents and the only line against others.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I have no read. I've played maybe 20 hands at the table. I think you need to have a default play that you can make absent a read, because this is frequently the case for me.

EvanJC

12-09-2005 10:51 PM

Re: River call. Obvious?

for me its a call vs an unknown

12-09-2005 11:03 PM

Re: River call. Obvious?

[ QUOTE ]
Humor me.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
Hero raises, 4 folds, BB calls.

Flop: (4.33 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls.

Turn: (3.16 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls.

River: (5.16 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 7.16 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't this a standard spot for a free showdown raise on the turn? We're committed to showing down, we may be ahead, and we've got lots of outs if behind. Yeah it sucks getting 3-bet, but he's in the BB, so he could easily have a crappy spade and go passive if raised.

12-09-2005 11:08 PM

Re: River call. Obvious?

After rake, you are getting just under 6-1, and it feels like I've seen people betting at 4-flushes without a flush a lot more than 1/7 of the time at Party 3/6. I call.

12-09-2005 11:13 PM

Re: River call. Obvious?

Turn is an easy call for boat outs + bluff possibility. River is a fold. The pot isn't that big, and you can't be good that often.

Why did he donk the turn instead of going for a check-raise? Maybe he was scared you'd check through. Sounds like a [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], IMO.

12-09-2005 11:22 PM

Re: River call. Obvious?

[ QUOTE ]
Isn't this a standard spot for a free showdown raise on the turn? We're committed to showing down, we may be ahead, and we've got lots of outs if behind. Yeah it sucks getting 3-bet, but he's in the BB, so he could easily have a crappy spade and go passive if raised.

[/ QUOTE ]

We'll never fold a better hand by raising, so we should wait to raise if we boat up. That means we don't show aggression until the pot is larger, making even a pair harder to fold, and a good [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] will go to war, in which case we cap.

We also let bluffers keep bluffing. If your read dictates seeing the showdown, let bluffers put in 2 bets against you. Don't scare them off with a turn raise.

Stinkybeaver

12-10-2005 12:20 AM

Re: River call. Obvious?

I think it has been up before that not folding a set while HU would hardly ever be a mistake and at most a very minor one.

I'm calling and don't care wether it's a spade or wether I win. I don't think theres much to be made from these hands although it always sukcs when your set is busted.

12-10-2005 12:23 AM

Re: River call. Obvious?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Humor me.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
Hero raises, 4 folds, BB calls.

Flop: (4.33 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls.

Turn: (3.16 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls.

River: (5.16 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 7.16 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't this a standard spot for a free showdown raise on the turn? We're committed to showing down, we may be ahead, and we've got lots of outs if behind. Yeah it sucks getting 3-bet, but he's in the BB, so he could easily have a crappy spade and go passive if raised.

[/ QUOTE ]

waffle

12-10-2005 12:25 AM

Re: River call. Obvious?

SomethingClever

12-10-2005 12:33 AM

Re: River call. Obvious?

12-10-2005 12:42 AM

Re: River call. Obvious?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Isn't this a standard spot for a free showdown raise on the turn? We're committed to showing down, we may be ahead, and we've got lots of outs if behind. Yeah it sucks getting 3-bet, but he's in the BB, so he could easily have a crappy spade and go passive if raised.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please explain why raising has a better expectation than calling.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because we're already planning on calling down the river. At least, I am. Raising for a free showdown has us putting in the same amount of bets if he does or doesn't have the flush. In the unlikely event we get 3-bet, we lose one bet but get back a portion of it for those times we fill up on the river. If we're 3-bet on the turn or donked on the river we can fold our set, and occasionally, raising the turn here might induce villain to fold out a superweak flush.

LoaferGee12

12-10-2005 01:29 AM

Re: River call. Obvious?

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