something I\'ve been doing lately.
 

5/10 4 handed game, so the blidn structure is 3/5, so it's less for the SB to see a flop. a 25/20 ish tag with a 33% ATSB raises on the button. You're looking at TJo in the small blind. The BB is kinda loose. I just call.

Or maybe the BB is another one of the many lagtags who play where i play. I just call anyways.

Who likes, who thinks I should 3 bet, and who thinks I should fold? As a note I call about 1/3 of the time, raise about 1/3 of the time, and fold 1/3 of the time, depending on my mood.

Re: something I\'ve been doing lately.
 

Fold. Hand is way too weak. You are dominated a lot. You are out of position. It is still too expensive.

Re: something I\'ve been doing lately.
 

Folding TJo always in a 4 handed game from the SB just because the button raised seems like a big mistake to me.

Re: something I\'ve been doing lately.
 

I fold also.

Re: something I\'ve been doing lately.
 

if you raise and fold the kinda loose BB some of the time:

[ QUOTE ]

597,594,096 games 2.103 secs 284,162,670 games/sec
equity (%) [tie (%)]

Hand 1 [Hero]: 38.6615 % [ 2.00 ] { JcTd }
Hand 2 [Button steal range]: 61.3385 % [ 2.00 ] { AA-22, AKs-A2s, KQs-K8s, QJs-QTs, JTs, AKo-A2o, KQo-K9o, QJo-QTo, JTo }


[/ QUOTE ]

If you just call and let BB in getting 5-1:
[ QUOTE ]
Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

539,627,468,688 games 2878.078 secs 187,495,776 games/sec

equity (%) [tie (%)]

Hand 1 (Hero): 31.4029 % [ 1.00 ] { JcTd }
Hand 2 (Button): 41.9841 % [ 1.00 ] { AA-22, AKs-A2s, KQs-K8s, QJs-QTs, JTs, AKo-A2o, KQo-K9o, QJo-QTo, JTo }
Hand 3 (BB): 26.6130 % [ 1.00 ] { random }

[/ QUOTE ]

so why not deprive BB of an equity edge and increase your own? I just dont see why we'd rather have JTo 3 ways for 2 bets than JTo HU for 3 bets, even if we're OOP. Coupling that with the fact that we make it +EV and therefore correct for the loose BB to call with any two and i think it's a raise or fold situation.

But, as i said earlier, i don't play 5/10.

EDIT: i never said what i usually do, i think this post just serves to show calling is not goot. I would fold JTo against your implied player, raise it against laggier others...

Re: something I\'ve been doing lately.
 

I would be more inclined to 3-bet than call. 25/20 TAG is raising a bunch of hands preflop which are ahead of you (Ax, Kx), but won't be happy to see you 3-bet. You're also not as likely to be dominated because he's raising so many hands. This play also puts a lot more pressure on him to fold postflop if he misses (which will happen most of the time).

Also, 3-betting will make "kinda loose" BB fold pretty often, and you'd rather be heads up instead of 3-handed.

Do you know anything about 25/20's postflop play?

Re: something I\'ve been doing lately.
 

This guy isnt even a blatant stealer. 33% ASB isnt all that much, and even if he was a more liberal blind stealer, JTo is not very good at all. It has very little showdown value, and you are out of position. If this guys ASB was around 50, I might consider playing it, but otherwise, I just fold it and move on.

Re: something I\'ve been doing lately.
 

I agree folding against him is your best bet. You have to remember someone with these types of stats is most likely a good postflop player so you put yourself in a really tough spot.

In my ass-backwards thinking, I'm more inclined to call with JTs. Is that wrong?

Also, how many hands does it take for ASB to converge to a fairly accurate number?

Re: something I\'ve been doing lately.
 

of course I doubt those stats are for 4-handed...they are probably mostly for 6-handed on most sites where you have played against him.


(yet again...I implore p-tracker to allow us to see these stats more easily...I want to have those heads-up hands against an opponent filtered out of the stats when I am now facing him 6-handed)


33% isn't a huge ATSB.
JTo has crappy showdown value.


This is a bad reversed implied-odds situation. If you miss your pair it's likely you're behind.
If you hit your pair then you are more likely to be dominated than to have him dominated.

JTo is just not a good heads-up hand and I fold to a raise.


Your general argument about cold-calling in the SB to a steal is one that I have played with before with certain hands. Entity (I think) told me that it's still going to be better to try to 3-bet the BB out of the hand OR have him stay in with a likely worse holding.
I have come to the conclusion that others probably know a bit more of what they'r talking about in this area and have stopped doing the cold-call thing.


I've also dropped about a zillion BB's the past few weeks...your results may vary.

Re: something I\'ve been doing lately.
 

Yeah, the original question was much more of a general "is it ever right to coldcall from the SB" question. For hands like QT and JT with top pair potential but no real showdown value unless it pairs up, I don't think it's a horrible idea to cold call and see what BB does. Why pay an extra SB to drive the BB out? He's either gonna fold something like 59 regardless.Also,a lot of BB's, especially when it becomes 3 and 4 handed, won't fold hands that dominate something like JT or QT, even if it's for 2 cold. Or at least the lagtags I play don't.

As for the actual hand itself, yeah, his 4 handed stats aren't 25/20. That's just his 6 max approximations. For 4 handed most lagtags become something like 35/30. And I think folding the SB with JTo against a 35/30 button raiser is a mistake. When it becomes 4 max the range for steal hands of an aggressive player becomes huge.

I 3 bet with something like K7o, but for something with no SD value unless it improves, I don't see much point in 3 betting, especially since with how much back and forth raising there is during blind situations, people start peeling real liberally, and betting the flop and turn to make it fold it becomes expensive.

Re: something I\'ve been doing lately.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why pay an extra SB to drive the BB out? He's either gonna fold something like 59 regardless.Also,a lot of BB's, especially when it becomes 3 and 4 handed, won't fold hands that dominate something like JT or QT, even if it's for 2 cold. Or at least the lagtags I play don't.

[/ QUOTE ]

In my experience, reraising from the sb certainly affects the likelihood of bb calling or folding.

Re: something I\'ve been doing lately.
 

Sure, but do you really want BB folding a hand like 8Ts?

Re: something I\'ve been doing lately.
 

No.

But for 2 more bets it becomes more difficult for them to call with another JT or QTo or something.


And after a re-raise you don't have to have the best hand to win with a continuation bet or two..or when you are just betting a draw.


Flop is 984....you are happy to win the pot before getting to the river on your semi-bluff without having to hit your draw. And when you 3-bet it then you're opponent is less likely to stick around with KQ or something.

This is more difficult to do against 2 opponents of course. BB has 86 for example. On this flop you could well have wished you had 3-bet to get him out.


I don't know if my assumptions are completely correct here.

The general argument is that allowing the BB to see the flop with 5:1 odds means that he is very much correct to call with most (or all) of the hands he is calling with.

Giving him 7:2 to call means that he is more likely to be making a mistake by calling.
And you are increasing your chances of taking the pot with standard continuation betting.


I hear you that it becomes expensive though. I'm still struggling with a lot of this stuff.
But I don't think that trying to save 1 little bet pre-flop is going to be the answer to your (our) woes.

But I'm pretty much just regurgitating some of the stuff given previously by posters smarter than me. I don't have enough successful practice with these tactics from my own play.
I'm too often on the losing end of that whole bit about wishing I hadn't 3-bet in the first place.
But in my case I think the answer is to fold the borderline stuff...not cold-call with it...but again, this is because I've been so pre-programmed to say 'cold-calling = bad'

Re: something I\'ve been doing lately.
 

I think the play here is entirely dependant on what the button will do when he misses entirely. If he's at all capable of taking free cards without you playing back at him, then just calling JTs and the like is probably ok.

If he feels he has to autobet with any two on every flop and every turn when he's the preflop aggressor, I just let this one go and wait to call him down with an Ace or a good King. Calling this person's raise is essentially calling the raise (1.4 sb) and his later streets (3sb).

If he gets timid when you re-raise, then you have to threebet this one to play it, and you can often take a free look at the turn when you miss.

Of course, Ed Miller suggested calling this if he can fold when you check/raise and lead the turn in the magazine this month.

Also, I don't think the blind structure has been factored in quite as much as it should be by some others so far.

With this structure, just calling and seeing a flop costs 7/12 of what it costs to attempt to push out the bb, risk a cap, and take a flop OOP with a hand that you can't showdown UI. With the resteal costing 171% of the cool-call, there must surely be some marginal (multiway) hands that aren't strong enough to raise, but arent weak enough to fold.

Re: something I\'ve been doing lately.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I agree folding against him is your best bet. You have to remember someone with these types of stats is most likely a good postflop player so you put yourself in a really tough spot.

[/ QUOTE ]

[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Since when are preflop stats any indication of postflop play?

Edit: Yes, it's overstated.

Re: something I\'ve been doing lately.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, the original question was much more of a general "is it ever right to coldcall from the SB" question.

I 3 bet with something like K7o, but for something with no SD value unless it improves, I don't see much point in 3 betting, especially since with how much back and forth raising there is during blind situations, people start peeling real liberally, and betting the flop and turn to make it fold it becomes expensive.

[/ QUOTE ]

To the first question I'm 3-betting or folding. I think you put yourself in a way harder postflop situation by calling.

Are we 3-betting K7o from SB..? I know I'm not K9s+ and K9sometimes and KT+. rest is fold IMO.

Re: something I\'ve been doing lately.
 

FWIW, I think this is a very borderline situation, one that could go either way depending on how much you pwn this guy.

Remember: J9o is about the worst J anyone around here will steal with on the button, and that's when you have position.

Re: something I\'ve been doing lately.
 

When it becomes 4 handed I will raise a lot of hands worse than 9Jo from the button. Ditching K7o in the SB 4 handed just because button raised seems very wrong to me. Course I ditch it sometimes depending on the player, but against a lot of lagtags I 3 bet it.

Just because calling with JTo instead of 3 betting makes postflop "harder" doesn't mean it's not worse.