NL Adventure - 2 hands
 

I'm sure I suck at NL, I've played maybe 50 hands or something of it. This is actually my 2nd post in this forum because I was once going to learn NL....but I didn't.

Anyway, I'm at a casino waiting for a limit game to open, and it's just taking forever. So , finally say, just put me on a NL table until a limit table opens. So, everyone is sitting down at this table because it's brand new. I know no one, and I already feel like I'm an underdog.

It's NL 1/2 and I buy in for $100, and it seems everyone else has done the same.

First hand I'm UTG+1, UTG folds, I fold, +2 makes it $10 to go, everyone folds.

Second hand I'm UTG with AA. I just watched everyone fold for $10, so....I don't know what to do, I suck. I make it $5. Four people call. The sb throws in $15. BB folds. I say "Let's make it $50". Everyone folds to the sb who says "I can't call you" and mucks. I turn over my aces cuz I don't care, I should be leaving in an orbit or so. Everyone gasps and says how horrible my reraise was. I simply say, I have no idea what I'm doing. They said make it a small reraise or just call and then hit the flop hard. For me, I just looked at the pot and said, "Well, that's enough for me, I'll just take it all now if I can". What do you think.

3 hands later I'm in the co with KJs. 4 callers to me, and I call (limit I raise this without thinking, I have no idea how standard it is in NL), both blinds call.

The flop comes 962 with 2 of my suits, blinds check and EP makes it $20, folded to me. I look left and BB has 4 red chips in his hand. I call, sb folds, bb tosses his chips in.

The turn is the Q of no pertent suit.

BB checks, EP makes it $25. I call, bb folds.

Turn is the 9 of spades, and pairing the board.

EP makes it $25 again. I just call.

Thoughts?

Re: NL Adventure - 2 hands
 

Raise the end and call a push probably. I dont hate the 3-bet with aces, they are stupid, dont listen.

Re: NL Adventure - 2 hands
 

Heh, funny thing is I just started learning no limit recently too. I'm pretty bad as well, but I've probably played over a thousand hands now, so maybe I have the tiniest vaguest notion of a clue of how to play this game (but probably not [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] ).

I learned because the largest limit game my local casino spread is 3/6, but they have a $200 buy-in 2/5 game. Even being somewhat clueless, using basic TOP concepts has given a huge edge over the other (generally horrible) players in the game.

As for your hands, I like your reraise there, as you want to get the pot heads up. Maybe you could lower the raise to $40 or $45 to entice a call, but honestly I think a hand that calls for $40 will often call for $50, so you may as well take the extra EV. Given your short stack, I would have pushed or made a pot-committing bet on just about any flop.

As for the second hand, your flop call is thin. Villain, for whatever reason, overbet the pot. You have to be paid off fairly often (and for a decent amount) when you hit the flush to compensate for the poor odds you are getting to draw (even with BBs presumed overcall). Your stacks really aren't deep enough to insure that you will get paid off, and you can easily be bet off your draw if you don't hit on the turn. (Of course, sometimes you will get a free turn card.) And maybe your villain is doltish enough to pay you off when the third spade hits, but even some horrible players can see a flush when it is staring them in the face.

Since you have no use for promoting a gambling image (since you will be leaving the table soon anyway), I think I would pass on this flop after the EP overbet. If you had a better read, giving you an idea of his hand range and what the likely turn action would be, you might have a call (or a raise) in this spot.

Anyway, don't take my opinion to have any degree of authority, because it doesn't. Just my thoughts as I try to learn this game as well.

Re: NL Adventure - 2 hands
 

Jazz:

I'm getting ready for bed here, but I want to get the rest of the story out before I sign off. I knew the flop was thin, so that, I thought was the toughest part of the hand (although still unclear on what standard is for PF play there). After he only bet $25 on the turn, I was pretty sure this player didn't know what he was doing even worse than I.

Before we started, I asked several of them if they wanted to play limit (we needed like 2 more so the casino would start another table). They all declined. I said, well...take it easy on me. I have no idea how to play this game cuz all I ever play is limit.

After I called the river, I said "What chya got?". He meekly says, "I have an Ace". We all laughed. He said, I thought since all you ever played was limit, the big bets would scare you. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] So, a river raise certainly had no value knowing that, however, I'm still not sure about what to do there.

Re: NL Adventure - 2 hands
 

QTip -

Welcome to SSNL. I always enjoyed your posts in micros & SS, and I hope you stick around for a while.

Regarding aces. As someone else said, ignore the advice from your tablemates. I ve recently posted this elsewhere, but I'll say it again. A couple of non-2+2 friends of mine complain all the time that when they play thier aces the way I tell them too (aggressive preflop), they "never get paid." They say that these hands come around so rarely that they have to get max value from them when they do get them.

They are now both broke.

Or you can listen to Ciaffone & Ruben. They say (in thier book, which you should get) that aces are a fine hand. But that thier most important function in no-limit is to get all-in before the flop against a worse hand, such as pocket kings or any other hand your opponent will go to the felt with. This is distinctly different than thier function in limit: to get paid on every street. It's also a simplification, but then so it was for limit, too.

Regarding your flush draw. It seems to me tha tyour opponent made a substantial overbet on the flop, and you were squeezed. It's great that you looked left; I don't think people do that enough. But you were getting rotten odds and if another heart fell it would probably kill your action, making your implied odds suck, too. I fold the flop there. Find a better spot & better money.

Your preflop call was fine, considering your position. I might find a raise with that hand in that position, but it would be the exception. Not the rule.

Re: NL Adventure - 2 hands
 

Glad to see you took down the nice pot. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

So far, I have found that playing NL has definitely improved my limit game. Hand reading and studying betting patterns is sooooo important for no limit, and of course it is a key for limit as well, but somehow having my whole stack on the line makes me focus my mind a bit more.

I would usually limp preflop with your hand, because your lack of reads plus your marginal hand (even with good position) doesn't give you much of any edge, if any at all, in the hand.

What do you think of your villain's play? Which of the streets do you think was worst? Were any of his bets +EV?

Re: NL Adventure - 2 hands
 

Thx Grunch.

I do have Ciaffone and Ruben's book. I've just not read it yet. However, after I finish my rereading of "Inside the Poker Mind" and then one more rereading of hepfap, it's next in line.

It just seemed to make sense to me with my Aces, that I should just make it happen now while I'm a clear farovite.

Yeah, I can see getting away from this on the flop.

Thx for the thoughts. I'll be around here and there more in about 3 weeks or so.

Re: NL Adventure - 2 hands
 

Jazz:

I've never been nervous at a table, but, like you said, knowing the whole stack was in danger, I was there even though I go there not caring if I come back with the money I took....it's mostly just for fun and a break from a billion hands a day of online play.

His worst street? hmmm...

Well, I think the flop bet was pretty horrid on that board into a sea of opponents. It was the only one that really put preasure though. So, I don't know if that's worse than his turn bet that most serious draws that would call his flop bet would have no problem calling. I'm not saying I know how he should have played it, but..the turn bet seemed stupid.

Re: NL Adventure - 2 hands
 

Hand 1 .. I make it 45 to go.

Hand 2 .. I re-raise turn. It is doubtful he raised early position with a 9 in his hand. He could have KK or something like that and give you all his money though. If BB calls turn I am a lot more cautious.

Re: NL Adventure - 2 hands
 

Hand 1, make it 10 preflop again! ANd your reraise is fine. Hands that raise to 15 almost always call when you make it 50.

Hand 2, I would fold the flop. Or raise.. He bet 20 into a 12 pot right? You need to raise this river.

Re: NL Adventure - 2 hands
 

Making it $50 with the aces was very reasonable. You'd much rather play this pot in position heads up against the raiser and force him to make a big mistake by putting half his stack in preflop when you have aces (pretty much committing you to the pot) rather than calling and building a big pot against a large field out of position where one of them will outflop you and stack you and the rest will fold on the flop.

Re: NL Adventure - 2 hands
 

[ QUOTE ]
You need to raise this river.


[/ QUOTE ]

I considered it, but it no know way to I want to put myself in a position to fold? Is that weak thinking?

Re: NL Adventure - 2 hands
 

Grunch...I'm curious why it is you're folding this flop. I don't see KJs on a 962 flop as just a flush draw when someone overbets like that. I think his K and J outs are good most of the time. Not to mention he's getting about 2.5:1 immediate odds just to see the turn. I agree the implied odds aren't so hot but I don't think he should fold the flop. But then I don't play that much NL either. Could someone explain to me a bit further though why you guys are mucking here when you're likely at 40-50% equity? Sure he may not see the river but I think I'd rather just go all-in than fold here. And like I said it seems to me like he's getting about the immediate odds he needs anyway. It's closer to a 15 outer than 9 outer he's holding.

Re: NL Adventure - 2 hands
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You need to raise this river.


[/ QUOTE ]

I considered it, but it no know way to I want to put myself in a position to fold? Is that weak thinking?

[/ QUOTE ]

You are not folding this hand. Live players in a 1/2 game will not play a set this way. He most likely has 9x, an overpair, or was also drawing to the flush (his turn underbet could indicate this). He always pays off with 9x and a lower flush, and there's only one higher flush. You should raise as much as you think he'll call, and call a push. BTW, these 1/2 NL games are comparable to the 2/4 and 3/6 live limit games.

Re: NL Adventure - 2 hands
 

Chief -

What I said to QTip goes for you, too. I got a lot from your posts in the limit forums when I was there, and I hope you stick around here for a while.

I've been thinking about your questions, and I wish I had a better answer for you. But I'm folding the flop here becasue I'm unwilling to back this hand up with my whole stack. Now if we truly do have 40% equity and wer'e putting in less than that then we have a theoretical equity edge, and we should be putting chips in. But my bad position, the non-nut nature of my draw, and the fact that some of my outs are just to 1-pair make me not like the hand much at all.

But I'd like to hear other views.

Re: NL Adventure - 2 hands
 

Hey Grunch,

Thanks for the response. I used to play a good deal of live NL but honestly I don't really enjoy it online as much. And where I live now the casino's take such a ridiculous rake that I play solely online limit. So I just stop by occasionally. Anyway...Qtip asked me to look at this one so I did. To be fair though my response is a bit biased b/c I asked Qtip what the flop bettor was like and from the description (30ish...bigger fella...a bit boisterous) I guessed he was on the laggy side. Would that lean you towards a non-fold? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] Anyway...just wanted to make sure you felt it at the very least was close. Thanks again.

Chief

Re: NL Adventure - 2 hands
 

What I found interesting about this hand is how non-sensical it was played. First, there is the gross overbet of the pot on the flop by the EP player. Second, he makes the exact same size bet on later streets despite the pot being much bigger in both cases. Third, BB calls the overbet on the flop, but then folds to the underbet on the turn.

If you had happened to sit at that table for a few hours, you probably could have started to get a sense for exactly what those irrational decisions meant, and since so many of them were so bad, you have an incredible opportunity to exploit them.

BTW, I thought the turn bet was really stupid too, but I wonder whether BB would have played the hand the same without you in it. If players in that game will often peel one card on the flop but fold the turn without better than two pair or a big draw, regardless of bet sizes, villain's play looks better. I doubt that is what villain is thinking, but I just found in interesting that the villain took an awful line but BB played it about as awfully as he could given that line.

Re: NL Adventure - 2 hands
 

Hand 1: Perfect raise

Hand 2: Push river, also, if you think EP is weak (read his soul), you can semibluff raise the turn, but just calling is better amost of the time.