Party 1/2 beginner help
 

Hi-I'm just starting out at 1/2 sh at party. prior to this i've been a 2BB/100 winner at the party 2/4 fr game usually 8-tabling. i 5 or 6 table the new 1/2 sh tables. I'm a little concerned about my new winrate here (.7BB/100) especially given the atrocious quality of most of the competition. This is over a run of 6000 hands and is somewhat demoralizing. If anyone could tell me if my pokertracker stats look ok i'd appreciate it:

VPIP-21.95
Fold SB to steal-55.68
Fold BB to steal-49.51
Att. to steal-27.72
W$WSF%-31.8
Went to SD%-29.18
Won$at SD%-57.14
PFR-11.14

Should I maybe go to showdown more? I've been taking some horrendous bad beats and basically been getting 2-paired to death this entire time. thanks for any replies!

Re: Party 1/2 beginner help
 

u can play more hands and raise more PF. U also need to see more SDs especially given ur VPIP. u can steal more.

But the biggest thing i would recommend is stop 6 tabling. Seriously, focus on getting better and moving up. U can't think enough 6 tabling.

Re: Party 1/2 beginner help
 

thanks for the help. my bankroll really isn't big enough to where i'd feel comfortable playing 3/6 sh since i continually make withdrawals for help with the bills each month. and i feel like you can pretty much put it on autopilot here

however, looking at the party 3/6 sh tables, they do look quite juicy. are the players there about as bad as at 1/2?

Re: Party 1/2 beginner help
 

i haven't played much 1/2 in a long time, but 3/6 players are pretty poor for the most part. Even the TAGs do retarded stuff (myself of course included, otherwise i wouldn't still be playing mostly here). Table selection is semi-important though, but not critical. You just have to test waters yourself.

Re: Party 1/2 beginner help
 

by the way carolina grad here, noticed you went to wake [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] what would you say a respectable winrate at is, both at the 1/2 and 3/6 party sh levels? the search function here doesn't go back far enough

Re: Party 1/2 beginner help
 

11 PFR is way too low. You need to raise at least 16% when the table is 6-handed. You're folding too much post flop too. Also playing 6 tables when your are not confident in your skills is not a good idea.

Re: Party 1/2 beginner help
 

one more thing-my flop aggression factor is 5.67. i feel as though this might be high, but i can't seem to stop continuation betting, and it is so common in these games to have two broadways and whiff the flop with another two fish in, frequently one of them behind you. any advice on this situation?

Re: Party 1/2 beginner help
 

[ QUOTE ]
one more thing-my flop aggression factor is 5.67. i feel as though this might be high, but i can't seem to stop continuation betting, and it is so common in these games to have two broadways and whiff the flop with another two fish in, frequently one of them behind you. any advice on this situation?

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That's really, really high. A lot of times it is correct to call to peel the flop or wait till turn to raise.

BTW, i sent a PM.

Re: Party 1/2 beginner help
 

[ QUOTE ]
one more thing-my flop aggression factor is 5.67. i feel as though this might be high,

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That's nearly double what it should be.

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but i can't seem to stop continuation betting,

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This is not likely to be the main problem. You need to call more. you're likely folding and raising too much.

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and it is so common in these games to have two broadways and whiff the flop with another two fish in, frequently one of them behind you. any advice on this situation?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you think you still have the bast hand or enough fold equity bet it. If you have JT and they are never folding, check.

Re: Party 1/2 beginner help
 

pm'ed back 2 7. thanks for the advice leader i'll work on that

let me be more specific. let's say i have AK and am going up against the BB and the flop comes 2 6 7 or something and he bets out. how can i call that if i don't have pot odds since the pot's like $5. that seems to be such a common situation here. i'm almost always raising of folding here. is that wrong?

Re: Party 1/2 beginner help
 

[ QUOTE ]
i 5 or 6 table the new 1/2 sh tables

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Suprised no else thought this was a problem. I would suggest spending some time one-tabling (two at most) so you can work on getting real reads and altering your play based on the flow of the table. This may not be an option if you absolutely need the money to pay bills but if your goal is to improve, you have to do it. Reads are much more important in SH than FR. Full play is so much more predictable. 6max is about getting value in marginal situations and you are giving up a ton playing to many tables.

Re: Party 1/2 beginner help
 

yeah i probably will be cutting it down. i do use PAHUD for reads though and i feel that that at least accomplishes something

Re: Party 1/2 beginner help
 

[ QUOTE ]
yeah i probably will be cutting it down. i do use PAHUD for reads though and i feel that that at least accomplishes something

[/ QUOTE ]

Stats aren't reads.

Re: Party 1/2 beginner help
 

Stop 6-tabling and start off with 2 or 3 tables max so you can learn the game better. I think you should be folding your SB to steal a lot more than you're currently doing. I think it should be somewhere in the 80-85 % region.

Raise more preflop. Definitely go to showdown a lot more. You are winning at showdown a ton, but it would probably be more profitable if you go to showdown more and lose a few more pots at showdown.

Biggest advice: Cut down the number of tables. If you're going to want to move up to the higher limits, you're going to have to fix some of these leaks. They will only be more glaring at the higher limits.

Re: Party 1/2 beginner help
 

great advice guys, keep it coming please! if anyone could address my question here i'd appreciate it:


[ QUOTE ]
let me be more specific. let's say i have AK and am going up against the BB and the flop comes 2 6 7 or something and he bets out. how can i call that if i don't have pot odds since the pot's like $5. that seems to be such a common situation here. i'm almost always raising of folding here. is that wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]

as an addition, let's also say that the button cold-called and i'm in mp

Re: Party 1/2 beginner help
 

Reads on BB matter in that hand. If he will bet str8 draws/overs, you can call down. If he only bets pairs, i'd call and hope to catch the turn.

Re: Party 1/2 beginner help
 

Hi Leehrat-

I'd like to echo the excellent advice you're getting here about multitabling: When you're learning a game you need to do 1 to 3 tables. I learned this the hard way by trying to learn 5/10 fourtabling, and now I think I suck so I can't even two table the game. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Anyway, your fold SB to steal should prolly match your VPIP or be somewhat close to it. Fold BB to steal is probably fine anywhere between 50 and 70%. Your WTSD is low but mine is pretty low too ... anyone know the best way to raise this? More calling down with second button?

Your PFR should only be 6 or 7 points lower than your VPIP, so get it up to 16 at least. Easiest way to do this is bring up your steal attempts to 35 % at least ... don't go above 40 tho.

Standard disclaimer: Stats are stats and they are only indicators of larger problems. Post individual hands if you want to improve more.

Oh, and in your AK example ... if villain is an unknown it's a split between calling, folding and raising. It really depends on the player. But I'd guarantee this isn't where you're losing your money ... it's whether you're deciding to continuation bet QTs in position against 4 players on a 456 rainbow board.

Re: Party 1/2 beginner help
 

[ QUOTE ]
let me be more specific. let's say i have AK and am going up against the BB and the flop comes 2 6 7 or something and he bets out. how can i call that if i don't have pot odds

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This is exactly what we are talking about here. There is no "standard" line. It is read dependent - so you must have a read. There is no way to get reads playing 5 tables. HUDs only tell you a partial truth (does that make it a lie?). Has the villian been showing down garbage? Does he call with any piece of the flop? Does he autobet the flop after being raised preflop? There are 20 other questions that have to be answered. Against an unknown I raise this most of the time but it is much better to have a read and know that if I'm reraised that I'd better fold the turn UI. But remember that AK does have showdown value HU in 6max. So sometimes you will end up calling down with top pair or ace high. Sometime you look stupid and sometimes you pick off a bluff. HU you opponent gets a piece of the flop <1/3 of the time.

Re: Party 1/2 beginner help
 

thanks a lot dietlime very insightful. i'll probably start 3-tabling 1/2 now (any less and i'll die of boredom) and move up to 3/6 once i close the leaks

Re: Party 1/2 beginner help
 

3 is too many. But, I know you probably have your mind set on that. Let me suggest you add one table at a time. So do whatever you do to find a table. Sit there for at least 15 minutes at just that table (oh the agony). By that time you should have at least one note on each player (hopefully several). Oh, you do take notes don't you? Yep, another skill that's helpful shorthanded. After 15 minutes add the second table, play for another 15 on the 2 tables and get your reads. Then add the 3rd. You will play more hands 3 tabling 6 max than you played 8 tabling FR.

Re: Party 1/2 beginner help
 

You have received a ton of good advise so far. Reads are a must when playing 6 max. There is a distinctly different pace of this game and you marginal hands need to be played properly as this is were a lot of your profit will come from. Also, any leaks in your game will be magnified with every extra table you play, so be sure to plug some of these before getting too crazy multi-tabling.

Props once again to MrWookie with this must read:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...t=1#Post2913856

Re: Party 1/2 beginner help
 

[ QUOTE ]
let me be more specific. let's say i have AK and am going up against the BB and the flop comes 2 6 7 or something and he bets out. how can i call that if i don't have pot odds since the pot's like $5. that seems to be such a common situation here. i'm almost always raising of folding here. is that wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]

I really depends on your read and what you expect him to do. I wouldn't be folding much here. I'd mostly call and see a turn. Raise sometimes if the opponent is often FOS. The turn is usually were you face the hard choice because it extremely read dependent.

Re: Party 1/2 beginner help
 

Just looked over a bunch of replies. Here's my two cents:

Everyone who says don't play 6 tables is correct--at least to start. I think 2 tables is a good way to go to begin to learn the flavor of the short-handed game. Your goal should be to up your bb/100 before moving up in number of tables. I think getting up to 4+ tables is okay once you can keep your winrate up. Just do it gradually.

My sample of hands--845--is admittedly small, but here are my results:

VPIP-22.42
Fold SB to steal-100
Fold BB to steal-92.31
(I think those are really skewed, as I've seen a lot of 92o, 74o type of hands in the blinds. I actually have a 5 bb/100 rate in the big blind. But I know I need to play more from the blinds.)
Att. to steal-18.66
W$WSF%-33.06
Went to SD%-24.08
Won$at SD%-66.10
PFR-11.36

That's netted me a 2 bb/100 winrate.

I don't agree with the comments that say your PFR needs to be higher. I'm playing MEbenhoe's starting hands guide.
And I can't see increasing my PFR by another 50% to 16 or so.

I agree that your flop aggr factor should be lower. This may be the most telling stat of all, as it exposes postflop play in a way the rest don't. Mine is 4.22.

And from experience before I dropped down and got serious about learning how to play short-handed, the PP $3/$6 is a very juicy game.

Of course, I just started playing, so all of this could be bullcrap. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Party 1/2 beginner help
 

[ QUOTE ]
Just looked over a bunch of replies. Here's my two cents:

Everyone who says don't play 6 tables is correct--at least to start. I think 2 tables is a good way to go to begin to learn the flavor of the short-handed game. Your goal should be to up your bb/100 before moving up in number of tables.

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That is incorrect. Your goal should be to have sufficient bankroll and be confident in your game. Win rate is not a measure of how good you are until you reach into the 6 figures in terms of hands at a given limit.

[ QUOTE ]
My sample of hands--845--is admittedly small, but here are my results:

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It's completely useless not "small." I'll do a little experiment to show you why. Let’s assume you're a 2 BB/100 winner. Since I don't know you're SD I'll use mine 17.6 BB/100. Therefore you’re SD per session 51 bb/100 and your EV is 16.9 BB. Here is a hundred sessions of 845 hands (results in BB):

18.08
1.80
-41.43
70.97
43.28
54.05
4.13
16.98
64.02
-4.64
128.32
2.87
5.94
19.44
-44.28
88.94
-39.29
-60.05
-36.10
77.09
-12.76
57.04
-85.66
86.50
71.62
-110.88 bet you wouldn't have made this post after that one
-79.53
92.21
8.30
-13.72
-12.69
45.15
-1.91
-37.86
-3.90
103.40
57.66
-83.36
-58.27
48.03
-62.47
43.73
85.39
-6.44
-46.15
-24.33
-2.54
-37.48
22.36
62.55
71.48
-17.95
-17.92
37.22
9.07
47.00
39.82
178.87
-18.80
-87.67
22.17
66.43
10.63
72.33
-12.99
45.91
120.50 Move up to 100/200 immediately.
-8.95
182.43
-94.98
3.41
-45.61
77.42
90.05
113.34
-4.69
81.06
29.65
62.04
-55.31
-14.86
3.33
-24.46
-38.12
66.36
44.16
109.24
18.49
-6.06
7.24
61.86
29.41
-9.91
35.89
-13.07
46.91
-30.41
-14.07
35.72
10.39

[ QUOTE ]
I don't agree with the comments that say your PFR needs to be higher. I'm playing MEbenhoe's starting hands guide.
And I can't see increasing my PFR by another 50% to 16 or so.

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16% is the minimum. Mine is 19%. 11% is not optimal. It just isn't.

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I agree that your flop aggr factor should be lower. This may be the most telling stat of all, as it exposes postflop play in a way the rest don't. Mine is 4.22.

[/ QUOTE ]

which is also absurdly high

Re: Party 1/2 beginner help
 

Your fold SB to steal looks REALLY low but it could just be sample size.

Re: Party 1/2 beginner help
 

Hi Cadence-

You gots some issues to work through with your stats - although of course less than 20k hands doesn't mean much, less than 10k isn't helpful, less than 5k is insignificant so 800something is a pittance.

Here's the deal: Defending the SB from a steal should equal your PFR at least. Defending your BB from steal should be at least your VPIP if not more. You should be 3-betting or at least calling (3-betting is better) A8o+, K9+, some suited connectors and 44+ from the SB. This would really help get your PFR up; anything less than 16 is a mistake.

Also, you need to steal more. Below 30 % is marginal, 18 % is really, really bad.

Of course you could be playing completely differently ... but this is all the commentary I can give when you're posting about less than 1000 hands.

Re: Party 1/2 beginner help
 

[ QUOTE ]
Defending the SB from a steal should equal your PFR at least

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LOL Where did you get that?

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Defending your BB from steal should be at least your VPIP if not more.

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Way wrong. FBBTS should be in the 50-60 range not the 70-80 range.

Re: Party 1/2 beginner help
 

One of the things that makes PFR lower in the .5/1 and 1/2 games is the ridiculous amount of open limping going on there. There will be many times on the button where I have a good stealing hand (say, Q8s), but 3 people have limped. I don't ever see value in a raise here, so I usually just call. Those of you at high stakes dont have this problem. Just my observation.

Re: Party 1/2 beginner help
 

Hey leader I have no problem being proved wrong with anything. But one line responses are stupid. If I'm wrong, say why, don't just be a cock. [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

I read the SB defend = PFR in several threads stickied up at the top, and it makes sense because you've already got money in the pot and you're trying to get more value out of the same set of hands you'd steal with yourself.

As for BB, I was starting conservative. If he defends = to his VPIP that's a good start, don't you think?

Re: Party 1/2 beginner help
 

[ QUOTE ]
One of the things that makes PFR lower in the .5/1 and 1/2 games is the ridiculous amount of open limping going on there. There will be many times on the button where I have a good stealing hand (say, Q8s), but 3 people have limped. I don't ever see value in a raise here, so I usually just call. Those of you at high stakes dont have this problem. Just my observation.

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Most of the difference between a 21/16 player and a 26/19 player is greater blind defense and increased iso raises. You will generally have a lower PFR at the lower limits for a verity of reasons among them the one you mentioned. Still 11 is pathetically low. you should be able to find 16%. Also the second stats poster in this is playing 3/6. That's were I play and I know you can find raises more then 16% of the time there.

Re: Party 1/2 beginner help
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hey leader I have no problem being proved wrong with anything. But one line responses are stupid. If I'm wrong, say why, don't just be a cock. [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

I read the SB defend = PFR in several threads stickied up at the top, and it makes sense because you've already got money in the pot and you're trying to get more value out of the same set of hands you'd steal with yourself.

As for BB, I was starting conservative. If he defends = to his VPIP that's a good start, don't you think?

[/ QUOTE ]

So if my PFR is 60% it's profitable to defend my SB 60% of the time? Your logic doesn't make any sense. It's just like the logic in full ring that says PFR should be half of VPiP, which is also nonsense. VPiP has a range in which it is profitable to play. So does PFR, and FSBTS and FBBTS. The fact that you raise 19% and you're FSBTS is 81 is a coincidence. One is not dependent on the other. It is not profitable to call in the SB with any hand you would steal with. Why? Because you're OOP and BB is yet to act. The fact that you're getting a .25SB discount isn't enough.

And no if he defends he's BB = to his VPiP he's going to suck from the BB. Anything over 65% for FBBTS is horrid. And it should be even lower.

Re: Party 1/2 beginner help
 

Leader-

Thanks for the clarification. I know I read the PFR is inverseley equal to SB defense somewhere but I can't find it now. In any case I think a strong argument can be made for 3-betting most your hands from the SB you'd be opening from on the button as it's likely to scare on the BB and give you better fold equity vs. the preflop raiser. My BB defense is hovering around 60 but it looks like I should lower it a bit, perhaps.

Re: Party 1/2 beginner help
 

[ QUOTE ]
In any case I think a strong argument can be made for 3-betting most your hands from the SB you'd be opening from on the button as it's likely to scare on the BB and give you better fold equity vs. the preflop raiser.

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Here are the hands I open have opened with on the BT at one point or another: AA-22, Axs, Ax, Kxs, K7o+, Q7s+, Q8o+, J8s+, J9o+, T8s+, T9o, 98s, 98o, 87s, 76s. Many of these would be absurd 3-bets from the SB. I would 3-bet an average BT raise with: 66+, A7s+, A8o+, KTs+, KJo+, QJs sometimes QTs and JTs

Re: Party 1/2 beginner help
 

I think this makes a lot of sense. (No, I'm not dodging any of the criticism offered above--the kind of stuff I've read in this thread is the reason why I started posting here.) I have opened on the button with AA-22, Axs, Ax, Kxs, K9o+, Q8s+, Q9o+, J8s+, J9o+, T8s+, T9o, 76s. I think that
a) stealing with hands significantly below these at $.5/$1 would be tough to prove profitable
b) my steal pct is greatly reduced because I get few chances to open from the button at $.5/$1.

Re: Party 1/2 beginner help
 

Thanks for all the help--this stuff is the reason I started posting here.

That list of opening BT hands makes sense to me. I'm off by a couple here and there (K9o+, Q9o+, T9o+), but these are very close to the hands I've opened with, too. I think my steal pct, aside from my admittedly absurdly small sample size, is due mostly to the fact that I very rarely get a chance to open on the button at $0.5/$1.