Blind war w/ a 2+2\'er
 

To set the stage: the deck had been hitting me in the face this session. Up $220 in about 70 hands here. So, it seems as if I'd been raising every other hand. I'm sure he was waiting a long time to 3-bet me, which he finally got a chance to.

Thru 200 or so hands he was about 20/19.

How did I play it, and how did he? Also, put him on a hand.


Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (6 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (8 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 12 BB

Re: Blind war w/ a 2+2\'er
 

I like the river bet, since this board probably didn't hit him, but getting raised stinks. He's got an overpair and doesn't think you have a 9. If he does have an overpair, I think he played it well. If he just has two high cards, he's retarded.

Re: Blind war w/ a 2+2\'er
 

PF and flop are fine. I alternate between c/r and b/3-bet this flop depending on aggression of opponent. I think i like b/3-b here.

Turn is fine too.

I don't like the river bet. U never have a nine and i don't think he pays off with OC or a busted flush draw. He knows u have a pair, so he can play it perfectly. U do get value out of a smaller pair, but the board is pretty low and not in a typical three betting range. But of course tag 3 bets out of bb vs. sb tag steal don't fit into the typical three betting range.

Another consideration is that the flop was co-ordinated, so he may fire one more bet with some retarded K high if he thinks u will fold A high draw. This is very miniscule but a small consideration.

Re: Blind war w/ a 2+2\'er
 

well, to really determine this, some questions need to be answered. 1) does he know that you are a 2+2er and 2) how active have you been, cause that can determine what his image of you may be

honestly, it looks like an overpair to me on his part after his flop and river action. I doubt that he is getting out of line with two broadways on that flop and then following it up with a bet on the turn

Re: Blind war w/ a 2+2\'er
 

I would have played it the same but just check /called the river. He could easily have 77/66, but I don't think he would be raising the river with those hands. But he would bet them on the river once you check, along with the ones that beat you. Then just call.

Re: Blind war w/ a 2+2\'er
 

I think you played it fairly well, but I dont like the river bet, calling his raise here gets real tough, and i like your showdown value, i really think its a possibility he had a good hand (aqs) and missed but figured u missed as well and were tryin to run him over...his raise on the river makes me think twice about this tough, and that a hand like 1010 could be very possible...
interesting hand either way
blind wars with fellow 2+2ers can be both very costly and very fun [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Blind war w/ a 2+2\'er
 

[ QUOTE ]
1) does he know that you are a 2+2er and 2) how active have you been, cause that can determine what his image of you may be

[/ QUOTE ]

I think he knows I'm a 2+2'er. And, I've been extremely active since my starting hands have been awesome.

Re: Blind war w/ a 2+2\'er
 

I like your bet/3-bet line. I feel like I'm becoming a one trick pony when I c/r everytime I'm HU in a blind steal/defense war and I catch a piece of the flop. I like this line to make him pay for raising the flop.

I value bet this river since I was almost positive I was ahead. I get value from AK or any A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] x[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. When I'm raised, I still think I'm probably ahead. I was thinking a weaker 8 at that point.

Re: Blind war w/ a 2+2\'er
 

Either an overpair or K8 or so.

Re: Blind war w/ a 2+2\'er
 

Looks like an overpair or filled set. Else 98s/76s got fed up with your bullying and took a shot preflop.

The river bet represents a hand that pretty clearly doesn't exist so I don't like it. All you had to do is check and he would have probably bet any pair against your likely unimproved overs.

I like his river raise with A8 or better.

You should remember that an intelligent player with datamined stats is apt to take a longer view of your image than the last few hands.

Re: Blind war w/ a 2+2\'er
 

I don't care for your river bet - I would have rather check/called. SB might not have a nine, but he could have an overpair. There is a very decent chance your ahead here, but not enough of one to risk getting raised, as I feel you want to get to showdown here, but I'd rather not get raised on the way. Your hand is a little too good to fold.

Re: Blind war w/ a 2+2\'er
 

I check-call the river and expect to lose this time. If he's truly "fed-up", he's probably overplaying a hand you beat at least 10% of the time so you need to show down. Calling his river raise is tough - I think bet/call often wastes a BB here (just to get shown TT+).

As others have said, if he has TT+, I like the way he played it; if he has whiffed overs, he's a retard.


Tom

Re: Blind war w/ a 2+2\'er
 

It looks like most of the responses disagree with my river value bet.

Putting him on a thorough hand range (that I'm ahead of) BEFORE the river:

Made hands: A8o/s, K8o/s, Q8s, T8s, 98s, 77, 66, possibly 44
Overs: AK, AQ, AJ, AT, A9, KQ, KJ, KT, K9s, QJ, QT, JT

There's not a 100% chance he has each of these hands. I think for hands that are suited in [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]'s or have one [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] that likelihood goes up.

The way the hand played out, not betting the river felt weak. I'm really trying to focus on better river play. Yes I could've c/c'd to induce a bluff, but I felt there was too great of a chance he uses his position and checks behind an unmade hand UI. Also, bet/folding is not an option.

FWIW, he had 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and spewed IMO.

Re: Blind war w/ a 2+2\'er
 

[ QUOTE ]

FWIW, he had 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and spewed IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]


i think only the river is a spew by him. you had said that you will CR the flop with any piece of it, so the overcard is the only card that he has to worry about

Re: Blind war w/ a 2+2\'er
 

[ QUOTE ]
FWIW, he had 7 7 and spewed IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]
This worked out well for you but also illustrates the problems with the river bet.

Your river bet did not pass the sniff test. He was able to work out that your line of play probably represented a pair &lt;= eights and not the nine that it superficially appeared to be. Now he has to decide how likely you are to have the eight as opposed to an even smaller pair. Sadly for him he misjudged (this time) although maybe his play is actually correct. I'm not really certain about your actual hand range so perhaps from his perspective the river raise is a favorite.

Anyway it's pretty clear from his raise that all you had to do was checkcall to collect a safe bet from almost every hand that would call your river bet. If his hand is slightly worse your bet gains nothing while if his hand is slightly better you lose a bet.

Re: Blind war w/ a 2+2\'er
 

i dont get your river bet... i think this would normally (ive already seen the results) be a situation of getting called onyl by a better hand.

Re: Blind war w/ a 2+2\'er
 

[ QUOTE ]
there was too great of a chance he uses his position and checks behind an unmade hand UI.

[/ QUOTE ]


This is exactly what I thought.
I was okay with your river bet and thought there was a reasonable chance he would call-down with something less than 8's. Letting him just check-through here feels weak to me too.
calling the raise on the river is indeed a toughie though...I would have thought he would just call with almost anything because of the fear of the 9. Obviously your bet looks a little weird to him...but there still has to be that consideration out there I would think.

Re: Blind war w/ a 2+2\'er
 

I think the easiest thing u can do that helps in these siutations a lot, is to keep control.

On the flop, Id either bet/3bet (which most of the time allows u to put in the last bet) or c/r then cap. Of course, if he then has the gusto to raise your turn bet with a worse hand, marginal, better hand...then u have a situation, in which u have to go with what u know. If he raises u on the turn, could be a free showdown/pressure play, in which if u call he should be checking a good amount of hands behind on the river. So say he does raise your turn and u know if u call his turn raise he will only ever bet hands on the river that have u crushed, then u can actually fold (unlikely to happen, but with some reads, u never know). If thats not the case u are probably stuck with a 2 bet desicion if u call the turn. Also, if a flush card hits, he could very well check behind, or u can bet it as a bluff (he might call u often though)

As it was played, flop is okay...Id probably give it another bet...turn is okay, hes almost always betting...river just c/c. He probably believes he is betting for value at that point, also u probably will not get a bet on a worse hand. KQ, A-high...maybe on a look up, or if he belives u have a busted draw. But you gotta remember, this guy is a value better, as are most 2+2ers...so with your action he may value bet both worse and best hands, while calling/raising your river bet with only the best.

Re: Blind war w/ a 2+2\'er
 

very nice and thought-provoking post oreo. thanks for sharing your ideas.

Re: Blind war w/ a 2+2\'er
 

thanks, bob. This thread caught me into my 4th white russian (my gf makes good drinks). Im just happy that it appears to have come out in a readable and slightly (hopefully) sane manner.