Semi-Bluffing in NL
 

Just trying to make my way through TOP now and have just finished the semi-bluffing chapter. I didn't feel like alot of this chapter could be applied to NL however, since with draws and low pair good kicker situations, I thought it was important to keep the pot small except for rare occasions when u think ur opponent is weak tight and will lay it down there. Am I wrong with this? I am having some trouble applying some of the concepts he discusses to NL, except of course for the math sections which can be applied universally to poker. Any tips on how i can relate some of this literature to NL play, and what chapters i should be escpecially focused on. Thanks...
Ivey

Re: Semi-Bluffing in NL
 

are you serious?

semibluffs are huge in NL

Re: Semi-Bluffing in NL
 

It is not required to read top or any other book to understand the basics of such a move. It should be intuitively sensed that if you bet, an opponent may fold, and that in doing so it is preferred to have a drawing hand.
That's all there is to semi-bluffing, take a hand that has a chance of improvement, bet hard against an opponent you suspect to be drawing, have a weak holding, or will fold to such a bet.

hope this helps cause that is a way out there question

Cambraceres

Re: Semi-Bluffing in NL
 

Semi-bluffs are huge, probably my biggest source of income lol

Re: Semi-Bluffing in NL
 

The primary goal of a semi-bluff is to get your opponent to fold. Why would this be any less applicable to no-limit? If anything, it's more useful in NL because you can bet enough to deny them the odds they need to chase their own draws and the fear of losing their whole stack later makes them more likely to fold things like TPWK.

Re: Semi-Bluffing in NL
 

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Semi-bluffs are huge, probably my biggest source of income lol

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I hope your jopking.

Semi-bluffs:

--villians sometimes fold.
--villians often give you a free card afterwards.
--disguises Hero's hand.
--builds a pot for when you do hit.
--makes you tougher to play against...(next time you raise with a monster made hand, and villian thinks he's chasing a flush again)

Re: Semi-Bluffing in NL
 

well, i'm obviously exaggerating, but I do think they are a huge and integral part of NL, and yes I do make alot of money because of semi-bluffs...I find they're great to check-raise with and create alot of dead money

Re: Semi-Bluffing in NL
 

I make most of my money with AA, but it is just variance [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Semi-bluffing is important, but you still have to make a hand to get real paid.

Re: Semi-Bluffing in NL
 

in these .25/.50 games and in that area, I normally try to stay tight on semi-bluffs. It is also good to show down a couple semi-bluffs after people fold, because I feel that it adds a little more value when you bet with a made hand.

Re: Semi-Bluffing in NL
 

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I make most of my money with AA, but it is just variance [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Semi-bluffing is important, but you still have to make a hand to get real paid.

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Re: Semi-Bluffing in NL
 

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hope this helps cause that is a way out there question

Cambraceres

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Saying that this is "a way out there question" is nonsense.

Perhaps if you think that such questions are so far beyond you and the forums where you post, you should go to the higher stakes forums where your wealth of knowledge will be better appreciated. You're bankrolled for such games and your ability and knowledge are sufficient to play there, I assume...

OP: Semi-bluffs are of questionable validity in lower stakes games, as well stated by SRM80, because they're generally populated with habitual calling stations. Since you're more likely to get called, the move loses one of its best attributes - getting opponents to fold.

Re: Semi-Bluffing in NL
 

I guess that is what i was saying...at the .25-.50 cent levels, it seems semi-bluffing is hard because donks won't lay down the necessary amounts needed to make semi-bluffs profitable. am i missing something...maybe i'm just picking my spots wrong

Re: Semi-Bluffing in NL
 

I agree its not that useful in very low limit games.

But as you start to get at the 1/2 and 2/5 levels and beyond, I believe it becomes more of a factor...people aren't so willing to call when they have to pay $50

Re: Semi-Bluffing in NL
 

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I guess that is what i was saying...at the .25-.50 cent levels, it seems semi-bluffing is hard because donks won't lay down the necessary amounts needed to make semi-bluffs profitable. am i missing something...maybe i'm just picking my spots wrong

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As a general rule, I'll consider firing a 3/4-PSB on the turn if I've got an open-ended straight + flush draw. Even then it's opponent-dependent - if they're calling stations, it's a no-go unless I know they're on total air, and even then, it's still a maybe.

I have found that they're useful in lower buy-in tournaments.

Re: Semi-Bluffing in NL
 

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I guess that is what i was saying...at the .25-.50 cent levels, it seems semi-bluffing is hard because donks won't lay down the necessary amounts needed to make semi-bluffs profitable. am i missing something...maybe i'm just picking my spots wrong

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I haven't played any NL25, but I played a lot of NL50 in the last couple of weeks and I can say that semi-bluffing works well in those games. Yes, you have to be selective about what your doing - the right bet size, and the right time, against the right opponent. But it worked more often than not, either by getting my opponent to fold, or by getting paid off when I hit my hand.

Re: Semi-Bluffing in NL
 

semi-bluffs are pretty important, especially if you play an otherwise tight-abc style. its a good way of mixing up your play without getting money in with no chance at winning if called. semi-bluffing is obviously better in lp, because you are more likely to take down the pot. also, it helps build the pot when you are in good position. doing it from ep is tougher, as you wil often have to fold the turn unimproved if somebody in lp calls. if you hit, it does improve your chancesof stacking your opponent though.

Re: Semi-Bluffing in NL
 

"OP: Semi-bluffs are of questionable validity in lower stakes games,"

I don't think this is true. There are a lot of good reasons that the semibluff is an important tool, even at the lower stakes games.

(1) It is wrong to assume all players don't pay attention at the lowerstakes games. Semi-bluffing is one tool to keep opponents from putting a read on you. This may not be AS important as at a table with good players, but it is still a useful tool nevertheless.
(2) related to one: It disguises your hand. Which is easier to play against? Someone who only bets when they have something or someone who bets BOTH when they have something and when they have draws?
(3) Oftentimes... betting will take the pot. You will take many pots you would have had little chance to win without betting.
(4) Building a pot. If you have 5 passive limpers in a pot and you have a nut flush draw... you may not get paid off one you make your flush. But your odds are correct if they'll all call your draw.
(5) Superdraws-- statistically, you may have the best hand with 2 cards to come. Get the money in while you're ahead.

I may be missing some but I think that hits a lot of the big points.

Re: Semi-Bluffing in NL
 

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you still have to make a hand to get real paid.

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that's really wrong :|

Re: Semi-Bluffing in NL
 

I also agree thats wrong in alot of cases...2 or 3 good semi-bluffs and its the same as doubling up for me alot of times.

I'd also like to add that semi-bluffs work for me because I'm fairly tight, so I get respect. If you don't get respect, then the usefullness may go down.

Re: Semi-Bluffing in NL
 

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you still have to make a hand to get real paid.

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that's really wrong :|

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You usually have to showdown a good hand to win a big pot.

Semi-bluffing garners you small and the occasional medium-sized pot.

That's the thought behind my comment. And I stand by it.

Re: Semi-Bluffing in NL
 

Semi-bluffs are incredibly important at all stakes. Granted, you often need reads in order to understand who won't lay down TPBK any kind of aggression, BUT, those players, at the same time, often get very passive and semi-bluffs can often allow you to get free cards on the turn.

Against tightish players, semi-bluffs are useful both in that they can allow you to take free cards, win w/o improvement and, for more observant players, be excellent with regards to metagame considerations.

Re: Semi-Bluffing in NL
 

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you still have to make a hand to get real paid.

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that's really wrong :|

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You usually have to showdown a good hand to win a big pot.

Semi-bluffing garners you small and the occasional medium-sized pot.

That's the thought behind my comment. And I stand by it.

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I understand the idea behind it, but the way you said it, looks like you're defending playing your draws like: call, hit, try to get paid off then.

PS: and probably the majority of the money we make playing poker comes from small pots, not big ones...for whatever that's worth in this discussion.

Re: Semi-Bluffing in NL
 

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I understand the idea behind it, but the way you said it, looks like you're defending playing your draws like: call, hit, try to get paid off then.

PS: and probably the majority of the money we make playing poker comes from small pots, not big ones...for whatever that's worth in this discussion.

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I have not problem with raising a draw. In fact, that is the best way to get paid when you hit.

I'm not so sure about your last statement. Most of my total winnings has come from AA, KK, QQ and AK. I am fairly certain the majority of the those were large pots.

I view taking down small pots as a refund/offset of paying to draw. For instance, if I am a 4-1 underdog, assume I can take down one pot by a semi-bluff, and one pot by hitting and miss with my other two. That extra small pot (semi-bluff pot) I just won helps offset the price I paid on my missed draws. I don't see it as making more overall than my monsters. I include hitting monster draws in my definition of big pots, which may explain some of our 'disagreement'

Re: Semi-Bluffing in NL
 

metagame considerations?

Re: Semi-Bluffing in NL
 

I agree with this post. In NL you can control the odds you give your opponent to call by varying your bet. Therefore is very applicable and valuable tool in your arsenal.