Flop raise with overs
 

Hey,

I feel like this is something I very rarely do, and that this may be a mistake (raising with UI overcards). So while I haven't been going lagtastic on the flop everytime I get AK I've been looking for spots where it could be superior to calling (or folding).

Is this standard? Bad? Tell me what you think.

Villain was 43/3/1.5 over 250 hands and had been donkbetting flops fairly frequently if I recall correctly, with both complete crap (gutshots, overcards) and decent hands.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls, CO calls.

Flop: (9 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, MP checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>

Re: Flop raise with overs
 

I like the raise, co could be betting [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]'s, you get to face the others with 2, I like to get this hu vs co. You still have 2 overs, plus a bdfd and a bdsd.

Raising w/ ui overs is not always correct, but I like it here.

Re: Flop raise with overs
 

In a loose passive game like 1/2, I would just call this flop and hope that I improve on the turn.

I don't mind the raise if you think that CO won't 3-bet and won't donk the turn. If it's going to get you to showdown for no more bets, then it's OK.

Re: Flop raise with overs
 

As long as this isn't your "standard" play I think it's okay. The pot is right about the correct size that it's worth winning but not so big that your raise is totally useless (nobody folds).

I think you clear some outs here and possibly get a free turn.

Re: Flop raise with overs
 

I think this is yucky. I would call and re-evaluate on the turn.

Re: Flop raise with overs
 

I like it with the bd draws and the opp to get this HU. Without the draws, I would more likely call, unless I really wanted to get it HU with the bettor.

Re: Flop raise with overs
 

This is fine, but only because you got yourself into the percect situation. He bets a lot of flops, so you have him beat a bunch. Furthermore, you get to force the other 2 villains into a rough situation, and may get them to fold better hands. On top of the fact that you have 2 overs, 2 backdoor draws, and a 9 SB pot. You also get a free card often if you want it. I don't think you can play this any other way here.

Re: Flop raise with overs
 

You have noted what I think is an almost ideal situation for raising the flop with overcards in position.

Your hand is stronger than normal due to your backdoor draws. You have position and your raise can clear up outs, plus give you the possibility of a free card (most likely you will want to take the free card if you get it, since a diamond draw won't fold anyway).

Re: Flop raise with overs
 

I think this flop raise is definitely good if you think you will get a free card. We must resist the urge to be on 4th street while more than likely behind. I'm probably 50/50 if a spade comes, but I still think we should take the free card.

Re: Flop raise with overs
 

[ QUOTE ]
plus give you the possibility of a free card (most likely you will want to take the free card if you get it, since a diamond draw won't fold anyway).

[/ QUOTE ]

This doesn't make any sense. If we knew he was on a flush draw, we definetly would want to bet. I will probably usually take the free card, but it depends on the rest of the flop action.

Re: Flop raise with overs
 

I dunno, it seems like so many players are just donking the turn here as well, hoping you have overs. That's what always happens to me.

Re: Flop raise with overs
 

First off, not providing reads on the people behind us is bad. The whole problem revolves around what they are willing to fold and how likely they are to checkraise.

This is a 4-way pot. All I see is a weakish draw facing a bet with two live players behind me. I'm not willing to go to war to try and prove that AT is the best hand.

1. My normal play would be to call and see what happens next. Folding the turn unimproved is a very live possibility depending on who does what.

2. Folding is not a bad play here. If I respected CO's bet more or if I strongly feared a checkraise I would actually do it. Without the backdoors I would fold anyway.

3. Raising is only good under exceptional circumstances. It's a commitment to invest a lot of money in a weak hand with weak outs. It probably is the way to go if you are determined to show this hand down, but usually you shouldn't want to do that. I'd be looking for a good chance to be ahead of CO plus opponents behind me who would fold pairs for two bets. These are in short supply in the 1/2 game.

Re: Flop raise with overs
 

I'd only raise here if I think that this guy's hand range is pretty wide; meaning he like to shoot at a harmless looking flop (to him) esp. he think you tend to play bigger cards and believes you missed.

I would think that more often than not he either paired the flop (or better) or is on a draw (e.g. diamond flush draw, straight draw). I also expect to see sets pop on the turn and not bet straight out on the flop (at least check/raise since you pf raised).

I'd probably tend to call the flop and muck the turn if we don't have a redraw or improved. But if you think that you can get away with a free card play more often than not here, then by all means raise. If he has a 7, 8, or smallish PP, then he may check into you. If a nondiamond undercard falls, I'd expect a stop and go from him. If it's 50/50 for you to call or raise, I'd tend to raise since the BDFD adds a little more value to your hand.

Re: Flop raise with overs
 

Good points. Sorry about not giving reads on the other players -- quite important, I agree.


SB was 58/13/1.5 WTSD 40% over 350 hands.

EP limper was fairly weak and tight.

Not much check/raising goes on in this game (compared to what I read here about other limits). The players who do check/raise majorly overdo it while most players just donkbet tons of stuff.

I agree with calling here and folding the turn UI being a very real option -- one, in fact, that I would normally employ here. But I thought the possibility of a free card, perhaps having the best hand and being able to check it down UI in a heads-up pot, or folding out J9 (and other "dangerous" hands) was worth it. However it may not be.

The thing was that vs. this guy I just did not feel I could fold the flop though I agree that without the backdoor draw(s) I'm not liking my hand much.

Re: Flop raise with overs
 

My only question for you would be, aren't we last to act on this flop? There is noone behind us--two checks, and a bet to us. We have a strong positional advantage.

Thanks,
Buzz

Re: Flop raise with overs
 

The two guys who checked have yet to "act," per se.

Re: Flop raise with overs
 

[ QUOTE ]
My only question for you would be, aren't we last to act on this flop? There is noone behind us--two checks, and a bet to us. We have a strong positional advantage.

[/ QUOTE ]
We are the TAG PFR. The early players are taking it for granted that we will bet and they will get another chance.

Going for the checkraise against the PFR is standard procedure in general. On this flop where almost all made hands are extremely vulnerable to a plethora of draws, trying to confront the remaining field with two bets is almost mandatory.

Digression: Imagine you are SB with 98. What should you be thinking?

Answer: My top pair plus outs give me a large equity edge in a 4-way pot. I should get as much money in as I possibly can. If I had 88 then *maybe* I should consider the consequences of using excessive force and driving out my customers. But that's not an issue with my actual hand because folds don't bother me at all. I want to hit them as hard as I can and what they decide to do about it is not my problem.

This is usually the right attitude toward protecting a hand. The whole business of computing the odds your opponents are getting and guessing who might call with what is rarely relevant to anything.

Re: Flop raise with overs
 

so the OP people are expecting you to bet, however if it does come around to you in this pot you're checking right?

Re: Flop raise with overs
 

[ QUOTE ]
so the OP people are expecting you to bet, however if it does come around to you in this pot you're checking right?

[/ QUOTE ]
If this flop checks to me on the button I would bet. There is some chance of being best and there are reasonable drawing prospects.

However one certainly should not be autobetting against three opponents. Change it around so that the flop is T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and my hand is A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. Now I will click checkfold as soon as I see this flop. If I'm still here on the turn we can discuss it.

Re: Flop raise with overs
 

Like the raise here. The cut off could easily bluf his straight or flush outs. Besides of that you let the SB and MP face a cold call which means they can only call with a flush out and OE straight with overcards. It also improves your odds to win when you catch your T and offcourse your freecard on the turn.

Greetz, Surf