Tight Play
 

Is anyone playing 15% VPIP and doing well at six-max (full table)? I just saw a chart with the results after 500,000 hands real money play for what I assume is several hundred players. The only hands that the average player made money with were in the top 15%.

You'd think the blind is coming around too quickly to play that tight. I average 45% VPIP myself- almost always taking the initiative from the button, almost never folding BB to a single raise, using position and player reads to make bluffs, etc.

Re: Tight Play
 

45% VPIP? Jeeeeeeeeezzzz thats high IMO but hey if you win longterm cool.

Im 21/10 so far(limited sample size)

Re: Tight Play
 

Generally...

15% is too tight.

45% is too loose.

Im about 26ish.

Re: Tight Play
 

What do you mean by 21/10? 21 BB per 100 hands at 15% VPIP?

As for how I'm doing at 45% VPIP: After 7,000 hands, I'm doing well (don't want to be specific because number is unrealistic over long term).

Re: Tight Play
 

21/10 means vpip 21, pfr 10.

vpip > 40 is definitely too loose if you're playing a lot of 5, 6 handed.

dude with pfr = 10 should raise more preflop.

the "gold standard" that this forum agrees is best ranges anywhere between 20/14 and 30/20.

Re: Tight Play
 

from the description of your play i find it *very* hard to accept you are even a winning player. nothing personal, just trying to answer your question.

anyay, yes 15% is far to tight. on average you say people are only profiting on the top 15% of hands, but this is very easy to explain because on average people arent very good at this game. simple.

the further above average you are, the more hands you can play profitably - but 45% is just far too high for pretty much anyone.

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Well, here are my numbers straight from PT. Isn't anyone else profitable above 30% VPIP?

http://www.cci-telemarketing.com/pt.gif

Re: Tight Play
 

47vpip and 43went.. rofl dude, you need to learn how to fold. 6k hands is a drop in the ocean. if i saw you at the tables i would definitely think 'aggro fish'.

Re: Tight Play
 

It could be profitible to have a VPIP over 30, but it is almost certainly less profitable than if your VPIP was at 30 or below. Even then, you would have to be a really good player.

Re: Tight Play
 

Well, my full-table stats are pretty similar and I have another 4,000 hands from that (see above). Nevertheless, I might experiment with tighter play to see what happens.

I've tried before but just found it frustrating to wait for good starting hands only to have them go down in flames. Maybe multi-tabling would be the solution to address having to wait so long.

Re: Tight Play
 

we had this argument in the micro forum. 45% vpip is too high. I think you can win with a 30% vpip or maybe even a little higher.
You have 6K hands, that is not enough to bother looking at. I would like to see your winrate after 50K hands and playing 45% vpip.

Re: Tight Play
 

I don't want to commit poker seppuku to prove a point. If I will do better to play more selectively, I will give it a go.

But I do admit, this sounds like an interesting challenge. Anyone out there with 50k hands and VPIP > 40%??

Re: Tight Play
 

In addition, filter your stats for 5-6 handed. It should drop your numbers some (although I doubt much, in your case).

Re: Tight Play
 

5-6 players BB/hand +0.05
4-5 players BB/hand +0.05
3-4 players BB/hand +0.04
2-3 players BB/hand -0.03

Looks like I need to work on my play for 4 or less players.

Re: Tight Play
 

[ QUOTE ]
5-6 players BB/hand +0.05
4-5 players BB/hand +0.05
3-4 players BB/hand +0.04
2-3 players BB/hand -0.03

Looks like I need to work on my play for 4 or less players.

[/ QUOTE ]

Although your comment is true, it has nothing to do with the stats you listed.

Re: Tight Play
 

Win rate is not the stat he was looking for. If your 6k hands are meaningless for win rate at all player #'s, a smaller sample with a particular number of players is even more meaningless.

Personally, I'm curious what your VPIP and PFR are by position.

Re: Tight Play
 

[ QUOTE ]
Well, my full-table stats are pretty similar and I have another 4,000 hands from that (see above). Nevertheless, I might experiment with tighter play to see what happens.

I've tried before but just found it frustrating to wait for good starting hands only to have them go down in flames. Maybe multi-tabling would be the solution to address having to wait so long.

[/ QUOTE ]

Granted, .5/1 has a lot of really bad players, your VPIP is way too high for both short and full ring. I have plenty of players in my DB with 45/20 stats over 2K hands making 5BB/100, but they're bad. I can't see you maintaining that over the next 50K hands and coming out in the green.

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I infer from the lack of experienced players jumping in to defend LAG play that, indeed, I had better make some changes.

Re: Tight Play
 

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. LAG play has a much higher chance of running hot for an extended period (compared to TAP and TPP play) because the variance is so much higher.

Re: Tight Play
 

[ QUOTE ]
I infer from the lack of experienced players jumping in to defend LAG play that, indeed, I had better make some changes.

[/ QUOTE ]

I consider myself to be somewhat LAG, and I play 27/20. I am very confident that with a 45 VPIP that you will not be able to win long term, however, on a hot streak, you will win more than people with much lower numbers. At .5/1, with excellent postflop play, you could probably still be profitable in the 30-35 VPIP range, but I don't believe this is optimal.

You say you get bored waiting for good starting hands, and watching them go down in flames. Well one of the toughest parts about being a good poker player is being disciplined. Don't throw in all these extra hands because you are bored - they will just lose you money in the long run. Perhaps playing two tables would work better for you as you will get a lot more action.

Good luck in the future, and keep reading here, as it will surely show you things about this game you could not imagine right now.

Re: Tight Play
 

Since you asked:

http://www.cci-telemarketing.com/gene/PT-Position.gif

Re: Tight Play
 

[ QUOTE ]
Since you asked:

http://www.cci-telemarketing.com/gene/PT-Position.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

The combination of your Went to Showdown and Won $ at Showdown is exceptionally high. This is an indicator that you are running very hot.

Re: Tight Play
 

Ok... I'm going to play VPIP of 30% for my next 1,000 hands at 6-max. I'll post the results.

Re: Tight Play
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ok... I'm going to play VPIP of 30% for my next 1,000 hands at 6-max. I'll post the results.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't do that. Your results aren't going to make any sense.

Re: Tight Play
 

Ah... sample size... that's right... darn... everything takes so much time...

Re: Tight Play
 

I have tuned up to 24/15.8 I lose a little with most of the small aces though, even suited, also most small pairs are slight losers.

Mack

Re: Tight Play
 

When ive logged 10k(Although i may move to 1/2 at 5k of .50/1 as i need to speed up and get to decent stakes!).

I'll repost, i may losen when i got 10K in stats, Depends on my win rate i guess and if im comfortable playing trickier situations post flop. Also on my oppisition.

Bonus clearence has been my main priority so this will affect my stats(Multi tabling, no stats on the players, some supports unsupporting PA etc, New site so i feel uncomfortable so play tighter etc).

Anyhow, i think "Optimum stats" is a stupid thing to aim for and maybe even discuss. 30/15 may make a 5BB/100 for 100 000 hands for guy A, But a -10BB/100 loser for guy B.

It guess it comes down to your natural tendencies and of course the main thing is post flop skill(and how loose your opponents are, party will be different to UB...)

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[ QUOTE ]
Ah... sample size... that's right... darn... everything takes so much time...

[/ QUOTE ]

patience young Skywalker!!

Re: Tight Play
 

I'm trying my hand at two-tabling 6-max. I'm up 30 BB after 400 hands. I swear I'm sticking to the top hands, 15-20% for full 6 players and expanding range to 30% as players leave the table- but PP is still saying I'm seeing 37% of flops. I think it must be counting my big blinds. Showdown win rate is 90% and winning 15% of hands. Percentage of hands won is same as before but showdown win rate is about 15% higher than usual.

Re: Tight Play
 

[ QUOTE ]
Well, here are my numbers straight from PT. Isn't anyone else profitable above 30% VPIP?

http://www.cci-telemarketing.com/pt.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Variance is sweet [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] Seriously though, you're too loose tighten up.

Re: Tight Play
 

Ok. I did it. I played 1,050 hands and managed VPIP of 30%. My BB/100 came out 25% less- I'll play another 5,000 to compare results with my previous play. One thing I noticed was that I became more passive... I'll try to increase my pre-flop raising.

http://www.cci-telemarketing.com/gene/pt2.gif

Here are my position stats:

http://www.cci-telemarketing.com/gene/pt2-position.gif

Re: Tight Play
 

I know its annoying and hard to believe, but these stats are kind of worthless interms of winrate etc .

You'd really have to test 10k at each vpip, and even then its vague result. Just 10x better than 1k [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Tight Play
 

this is an amusing little thread.


Also - you should know that the Party won $ at showdown stat is completely messed up and has been incorrect for about 2 years now.
Do not pay attention to this stat at all.
Seriously, it's just plain broken and they haven't bothered to fix it.

I think it only counts it as a won showdown if another player's cards are actually shown...whereas it is obviously possible to win AT showdown...but the players you beat muck their cards and don't show them to the table (I'm not sure if this is the idiotic stat that it is caluclating...just a guess...but I do know that it's wrong wrong wrong).

And yes....the see-flop stat on party does include the BB...whereas the VP stat on p-tracker does not.

Re: Tight Play
 

Ah... good to know.

Regarding my 1,000 hands- I have to confess I strayed a couple of times (I can recall maybe 5 instances) and played low suited connectors with one or two gaps a few times. It worked out though- in one case I got 4-of-a-kind and in another I got a straight-flush. I had 4-of-a-kind twice along with the str8 flush this session. The odds against that must be astronomical!

Towards the end I was also getting a little stupid (calling too much, raising in the wrong situations, etc.).

Re: Tight Play
 

tight play for short handed is overated. However if your vpip is mainly for 6 max tables with 5 or 6 people sitting there you have to be really good postflop for that to be optaimal.

Re: Tight Play
 

In most of these SS games you could probably win playing at 15% or so. Since the rake is brutally high, you wouldn't be losing that much at that % either. Still 22-25 is much better, at 15% you just miss out on too many obvious profitable hands. At higher limits you don't get as much action on big hands, people will steal your blinds if you don't defend, and the rake is lower, so slightly looser play than that should come as a result.
Your numbers are crazy. There is no way you can ever win long-term playing that many hands. I see that you never ever fold your BB except with two low offsuits non connected and almost always complete the SB as well, and you probably play something like any ace and any two 9 or above any position and most suiteds as well from the looks of things.
People who think that you need 250k hands to have an idea of winrate are taking things way too far, but seriously, you know nothing over 10k hands. In these low stake games I (and many other players I'm sure) have had runs as high as 9bb/100 over 10k hands and trust me, I'm not a 9bb/100 player or even a 4bb/100 player. It only takes 10 or so big river cards to swing the numbers a long way in either direction over 10k hands.

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Is this is a joke thread?

Re: Tight Play
 

[ QUOTE ]
Anyhow, i think "Optimum stats" is a stupid thing to aim for and maybe even discuss. 30/15 may make a 5BB/100 for 100 000 hands for guy A, But a -10BB/100 loser for guy B.


[/ QUOTE ]

I do agree with this, I am playing 50/1 also at the moment, at 6 max only a sort of rebuild after unfortunate spell at 1/2 and a lack of confidence. I may be running good, like I said I'm at 24% vpip 15.8% pfr, my went to SD is 36.5% and my win$ at SD is around 53.5%, aggression is 2.7 AF. I haven't really aimed for these I'm just using a chart as a framework to build an idea on really and playing post flop in the way I prefer to against weak non-tricky opponents. Like you I probably will move up to 1/2 again at 10k hands, or maybe 20k, as I have over 4000 bets at this level in my current bankroll, and this is more of a learning experience than anything else.

Regards Mack

Re: Tight Play
 

[ QUOTE ]
I've tried before but just found it frustrating to wait for good starting hands only to have them go down in flames. Maybe multi-tabling would be the solution to address having to wait so long.

[/ QUOTE ]
Maybe you've hit on the problem here and should work on your emotional control.

Re: Tight Play
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ok. I did it. I played 1,050 hands and managed VPIP of 30%. My BB/100 came out 25% less- I'll play another 5,000 to compare results with my previous play.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess you still don't get it...